Do You Have a Permit for That?

With warmer weather on the way (eventually), some residents may be planning home improvement projects. Did you know that you need a permit to re-roof your home? Or that some projects require a sanitation review from the Missoula City-County Health Department? The permitting process may seem daunting, but county staff are here to help ensure your next project is compliant and safe.

Commissioner Slotnick sat down with Rita Hagler from the Building Division of Public Works, and Nick Zanetos from the Planning, Development and Sustainability Department this week to talk about all things permitting.

Be sure to check out missoulacounty.build to get started!

Thank you to Missoula's Community Media Resource for podcast recording support!

Transcript

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:10] Welcome back, everybody, to Tip of the Spear with your Missoula County commissioners. I'm Josh Slotnick and I'm solo hosting today as Dave and Juan are doing tough duty in other places. But I'm joined by two wonderful guests and we're going to talk about permitting. You guys want to introduce yourselves?

Rita Hagler: [00:00:26] Yes, I'm Rita Hagler and I am the permit programs manager at the building division with Missoula County.

Nick Zanetos: [00:00:31] Yeah, I am Nick Zanetis. I'm a planner II, in the Office of Planning, Development and Sustainability.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:35] Great. Thanks for coming. So we start with you, Rita. What sort of permitting do you do?

Rita Hagler: [00:00:41] We do everything.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:42] Okay. We can have to narrow it down...

Rita Hagler: [00:00:44] We do it all: building permitting, we do land use permitting as far as intake.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:50] And what does that mean? Land use intake?

Rita Hagler: [00:00:52] Our division does the intake, which means we accept the applications.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:57] Okay.

Rita Hagler: [00:00:57] We process them to make sure that all the information is on there accurately and then we send it off for review as needed.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:03] Okay, so somebody wants to do a subdivision or if somebody wants to do a pole barn, both of those applications go through you first.

Rita Hagler: [00:01:11] The pole barn construction portion would the subdivision portion would go directly to planning.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:16] Okay. So the intake wouldn't matter. It would go right to Nick. 

Rita Hagler: [00:01:20] So if you think of the building division just as construction portion of it.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:24] Would you be up for kind of walking us through that? So what happens... somebody, they're going to build a house?

Rita Hagler: [00:01:29] Sure. Well, first of all, I want to make sure that everybody knows about our website, MissoulaCounty.build. And that's very informational. It takes you basically through the six steps of a permit process, starting out with your investigation, your research, making sure you can do what you want to do, where you want to do it. That also helps you get in line for the next process, which would be your planning. Once you get your plans together, you can bring them all to us or upload them online and we make sure that your plans meet the qualifications for the intake, which are all lined out on our website, whether or not they need engineering, floor plan elevations and so on. Once that's approved, we set their fees, a plan review fee, which is 35% of the permit fee that's due up front.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:08] 35% of the of the review fee, not the cost of the construction.

Rita Hagler: [00:02:12] Correct. 

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:13] Yeah.

Rita Hagler: [00:02:13] Of the permit fee based on either square footage or based on valuation for commercial and remodels. Okay. Once it's sent off for all the departments to review, it goes consecutively to everyone for review and it's basically in the queue and we do all permits in the order in which they were received. Once they receive all approvals from the departments, then we can reach out to the customer. They pay their fees, they're off and running.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:36] Then inspection happens.

Rita Hagler: [00:02:37] Correct. So once they get their approved plans and inspection card, their first inspection starts out with their foundation or footing and just continues on from there. Okay. Now we have our online scheduler for inspections. They can schedule it right online or they can call in and leave a message. Great.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:53] All right. So how much time elapses between, let's say somebody calls and wants to set up an inspection to when they get an inspection?

Rita Hagler: [00:03:00] If you call before 7 a.m. the day you want the inspection, it will be on for that day.

Josh Slotnick: [00:03:04] That's amazing.

Rita Hagler: [00:03:05] Yes.

Josh Slotnick: [00:03:05] Wow. Way to go, Nick. How about you?

Nick Zanetos: [00:03:08] We administered the land use and zoning compliance permits that Rita already mentioned here. So the way this works is every building permit you require to do a land use and zoning compliance permit. If you're a zoned area, it's a zoning compliance permit. If you're on zoned, it's a land use permit. But we all have the same forms there. Try to keep it easy and for that we're looking at a few things. We're looking at your zoning regulations. If you are a zone, so can you build what you want to build in that zoning district? Is there any extra approvals that you might need to perform your project out in full? We're also looking at other land use regulations such as floodplain and shoreline regulations, making sure you're compliant with those. And we're also looking at your subdivision and making sure you're compliant with the subdivision approvals subdivision was approved under the context of.

Josh Slotnick: [00:03:48] Great. So I want to just step back a bit from the nuts and bolts for some folks. They felt like they hadn't really interacted with local government until they go to get a permit. And then they may ask, Well, why do I need to get a permit? What do you tell yourselves in terms of answering that question of why do I need to get a permit? So you want to go.

Rita Hagler: [00:04:06] Basically, the permits are required by state. First of all...

Josh Slotnick: [00:04:09] It's law.

Rita Hagler: [00:04:09] First of all, it's law. Okay. Second of all, the reason why it is a law is because we look out for the safety of you, your family, your investment, your neighbors, and a potential buyer of your property and structures that are on it. That is really the whole goal of the building permitting process and the inspections.

Josh Slotnick: [00:04:26] And if I understand it right, the building permitting process is not funded by taxpayers. Correct. How does how does it work then?

Rita Hagler: [00:04:33] Correct. It's all self funded monies that we receive for plan reviews and permitting goes to pay our inspectors, our building official, our intake people who are amazing, I might add, and anything really having to do with the building inspection division.

Josh Slotnick: [00:04:46] So Nick, I have five acres and I want to put four houses on there. Can I just do that? Why do I need to get a permit?

Nick Zanetos: [00:04:52] With land use and zoning permits, we like to say that the importance of them is orderly development and making sure things play out in a manner that our community wants them to. For zoning compliance permits, we're looking at a zoning classification and all of our zoning is based off of our county's growth policy, which is really a vision and extension of our community and how we want to develop. So this is a way that we ensure that you don't get a storage unit facility in your neighborhood or you don't don't have a car dealership taking up our prime commercial real estate in downtown portions of Lolo or East Missoula. So really it's a way to ensure orderly development. And then on the land use side, it's a way to make sure that we're protecting our streams and our rivers with our floodplain regulations, making sure we're compliant with all of those. So if we do have floods, we have structures that are built to withstand those floods. And then for Shoreline [regulations], making sure that we're protecting our natural resources that we value here.

Josh Slotnick: [00:05:43] Great. So we just did a big rewrite of our zoning code here at Missoula County. Why do you think that was necessary? I mean, if we have zoning, why do we need to change it totally?

Nick Zanetos: [00:05:53] So our old county zoning was based off of the foundational zoning that was established back in the 70 seconds for Missoula County. So as you can imagine, it was pretty out of date with the new uses and just the new vision for the community as a whole. We've grown a lot since then, so we really wanted to update our zoning to further reflect our changing values, the changing landscape and also the increasing demand that we've had on our market here and make sure that as we have that demand, we can still kind of grow in a way that we all can see the end goal. And it's not haphazard development.

Josh Slotnick: [00:06:24] That's a great answer. So the essence of orderly development and predictability and safety and community values, those change. And we changed our zoning to match.

Nick Zanetos: [00:06:33] Correct. Yep.

Josh Slotnick: [00:06:34] So, Rita, with building something, what are some of the concerns you all have if people build without getting a permit?

Rita Hagler: [00:06:40] It's really about our customer protection. It's protecting the people that are living there or will be living there or may buy it five years in the future. We want to make sure that it's safe for everyone. We have a prime example of what can go wrong if you do not pull permits and we have a really fancy board in our office. I brought some pictures here to show kind of stress, the point forward that if you have a pull structure and you want to put it on your property and you don't understand why we're requiring you to have engineering, it's basically to make sure that it doesn't blow away in a windstorm.

Josh Slotnick: [00:07:11] You know, I actually live on this street and I remember this well. Yeah. When the whole structure was in the road.

Rita Hagler: [00:07:18] Yeah, Yeah. And we also want to protect for, you know, snow loads up in the Condon area, Seeley Lake area, they have really high snow loads. So we want to protect those structures from caving in and potentially harming someone. Sure.

Josh Slotnick: [00:07:30] So I can imagine somebody saying, you know, I'm just going to build it and it doesn't work. It's on me. Like I have every self interest type of reason to do a good job. What would your response be to that?

Rita Hagler: [00:07:39] I would politely remind them that the whole reason we're here is to help them be safe. Who knows in the future if they're going to sell that property, what will the next person think? Are they going to be safe? Are they going to inherit the problems that they just said, "Well, we'll just do it without a permit, no problem."

Josh Slotnick: [00:07:51] For me, that's the most compelling piece of this, especially because a lot of folks, especially in the recent past, have bought here quite quickly because the market was crazy hot. Yes. They couldn't find a building. They couldn't get their home inspected or the land looked at. They bought from a distance. They paid cash. They rushed out here and they inherited or they purchased a pole barn that was poorly built. And then two years later, that thing falls down in heavy snow and they wonder what the heck happened. Well, if it had been built with a permit and according to code, that snow probably wouldn't have crashed that pole barn, right? Correct. Nick, around land use, there's a big piece of that isn't so much around where the structures can be, but it has a lot to do with the environmental effect of people living right there. Specifically, I'm thinking about things around sewer versus septic and drain fields. Et cetera. Can you talk about the permitting in that area?

Nick Zanetos: [00:08:40] Totally. So that is handled by the Missoula City-County Health Department. And our colleague Jeanna, who is unfortunately out sick today, would have been the representative from the health department here today. But I'm just going to just briefly touch on Health's role in the whole permitting process. Just like you said, they're looking at well and septic permits, whether or not you are required to hook up to city sewer, if that is available in your area. And just like you said, it's strictly for environmental protection purposes. If you have an out-of-date septic, you might be leaking sewage into your neighbor's. Well, we have people that frequently try to build on top of their drain field facilities in their own yard. What health does is they look at your permit and make sure that your project is up to date with all local and state sanitation regulations. So yes, this could be anything from new septic permits. Checking if your existing septic system can absorb and increase use or ensuring that you're not building on top of your sanitation facilities that need to work correctly in order to have your home be a functioning unit. Yeah, I.

Josh Slotnick: [00:09:33] Can really see the issues with having a well and a septic and a drain field, all being the appropriate distance apart so that you're drinking water that won't make you sick. So how are fire districts involved with permitting?

Nick Zanetos: [00:09:45] Yeah. So that really happens in two ways. So the first is through the enforcement of the subdivision, conditions of approval related to fire. So as I mentioned earlier, anytime a subdivision is approved, it's approved with a set of conditions of approval. And essentially it's saying that this subdivision is okay to proceed as long as you can meet these conditions. And those conditions are meant to mitigate any risks in the surrounding environment or for the subdivision as a whole and how it impacts. One of the common conditions that we see on subdivisions are related to fire, whether it's through ensuring that you have an adequate water source for your residential project or making sure if you're located in the WUI [wildland urban interface], that you have defensible space around your structure. If you're in a subdivision that does require a condition of approval related to fire, then the appropriate fire district is going to be the one to review that during the permitting process. Then the second way is the enforcement of the International Fire Code, and that only happens within the Missoula Rural Fire District boundaries because they are a large enough entity that they have the authority and jurisdiction to do that. But they're essentially looking for fire code requirements that almost mirror building code. So they're looking for proper address in the structure so they can respond in a timely manner to any incidents. They're checking for exit signs that newly constructed businesses if you're a business with a gate, they're making sure that they have access to that gate. And any scenario that they might need to respond to.

Rita Hagler: [00:11:02] That also comes into play with your building permits when you want a certificate of occupancy...

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:05] What's a certificate of occupancy?

Rita Hagler: [00:11:07] It verifies that the structure has been completed, all inspections required to bring it to the minimum current code. And it also confirms that any other items related to health and land use have been addressed.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:19] So it's the last step, correct?

Rita Hagler: [00:11:22] Correct. And in order for that to be issued, you have to have all of the approvals for the required inspections from the other departments. So a lot of times fire will have a fire CFO inspection and a lot of people don't understand why they have to have that. And that's exactly what Nick just talked about as to why they have to have it.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:38] So today, the official first day of spring, it's the spring equinox. So that means the start of building season or the start of mud season. I guess it depends which way you look at it. So people are going to be out there building things. Are there specific projects, do you think? Typically, folks don't really know they should have a building permit? Yes. And then they go forth anyway. What would some of those things be?

Rita Hagler: [00:11:59] Definitely. A lot of folks don't realize that they need reroofing permits.

Josh Slotnick: [00:12:02] Reroofing permits.

Rita Hagler: [00:12:03] Yes. So a lot of times if you take off your shingles and you put on new underlayment and a new shingle or a new metal roof, it does require a permit.

Josh Slotnick: [00:12:11] And with a project like that, there are people out there that could do this themselves. But there are also a lot of people who are busy and would hire someone. Can they just rest assured that the person they're hiring is going to go pull these permits? And what advice would you give to someone who's about to hire somebody to put a new roof on a building?

Rita Hagler: [00:12:26] I would always recommend people to ensure that their contractor has showed them a copy of their permit, as well as a pink inspection card that is required to be on every Missoula County project site, and that's on display.

Josh Slotnick: [00:12:39] So when you drive by, you can see that big pink card, correct?

Rita Hagler: [00:12:42] That's there, right. As a customer to request that information. So I highly recommend they do that. Oh, good, good.

Josh Slotnick: [00:12:47] So, Rita, I've heard out there in the greater world that if you're going to build something that's less than 200ft², you don't need to get a building permit.

Rita Hagler: [00:12:54] Well, you're half right. Half right.

Josh Slotnick: [00:12:56] Okay.

Rita Hagler: [00:12:57] We do have a 200-square-foot exemption that allows folks to build sheds or playhouses for storage. The exemption does not apply to any structures that are going to be used as habitable space. Okay. It's the use of the structure that qualifies it for the exemption, and not the size.

Josh Slotnick: [00:13:15] So if somebody is going to live in, it doesn't matter.

Rita Hagler: [00:13:17] Or if you're going to rent it out or use it as a hunting lodge.

Josh Slotnick: [00:13:21] Yeah, but if it's storage or serve some other purpose other than habitation...?

Rita Hagler: [00:13:26] Correct. If it's under 200 square feet, then it is exempt under those circumstances.

Josh Slotnick: [00:13:30] Good. Okay. I cleared that bar. Could you guys talk to us about turnaround times? 

Rita Hagler: [00:13:36] So turnaround times is really a team effort. When you talk about that, it takes a due diligence of the applicant to ensure that they've done their research and development of the plans, as well as all the departments that are partaking in the review process with a complete application that meets the guidelines. A permit review could usually take approximately about two weeks for approvals, again completed in the order in which they were received. But keep in mind that reroof permits and any trade permits such as electrical, mechanical, plumbing, those are same day permits. You can come in, walk out the same time with that permit. One thing to keep in mind is on the trade permits, if they are related to a building permit that can't be issued until the building permit has been approved and issued.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:15] Okay, So you're building something and that construction of that thing requires, in essence, a driveway, an attachment to an existing road, an approach. Does that require a permit?

Rita Hagler: [00:14:25] It does. If you are approaching off of a county-maintained or county non-maintained road, if it's a state highway, you would go through the MDT. Okay.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:33] But if it's in the county, you got to get an approach permit from the county.

Nick Zanetos: [00:14:36] Correct. One more thing to keep in mind about permitting turnaround times as well is the time of year that you submit that. So in general, May to September is our peak building season here in this part of the state. So if you're planning a project in this timeline, then now is a good time to get your application submitted before turnaround times slow down due to just the number of permits that we see during peak building season.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:55] Thanks, Nick. So with all these things, we just touched on the tip of the iceberg here. If people want to get more information before they plan their small subdivision or build their pole barn or put a new roof on the shed, where do they go? To find more info?

Rita Hagler: [00:15:06] Definitely go to MissoulaCounty.Build. And it will walk you through the whole process of permitting.

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:12] MissoullaCounty.Build?

Rita Hagler: [00:15:13] Correct? Yep.

Nick Zanetos: [00:15:13] We're also going to be at the MBIA home show at the Missoula County Fairgrounds April 14th to 16th. We will have a booth there where we're going to have a representative from all three of the permitting agencies there, and we'll be there to answer any of your questions and walk you through the process if you need.

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:26] Great. That's fantastic. So typically, we ask our guests this question. So you've rehearsed, you know, what you're going to say out there in the world of culture. So I'm thinking books, movies, podcasts, music, conversations with friends, anything. Did you stumble into a nugget, something you thought that was really worth my brain holding on to that you would be up for sharing?

Nick Zanetos: [00:15:46] One book that I've been slowly chipping away at is from local Missoulians author Jim Harmon, and he has a book called The Sneakiest Man There Ever Was.

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:54] What a great title!

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:55] Yeah. And it's just a collection of great short stories about old timey Missoula...

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:59] Is that our very own Dave Strohmaier?

Nick Zanetos: [00:15:59] [laughing] It might be. Unconfirmed. I'm only on chapter five on it, but it's a great collection of short stories. If you like old time Missoula history, it's an easy read and it's just great to read.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:11] He does those Harmon's history.

Nick Zanetos: [00:16:12] He does. Yep. He's the one.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:14] And that was a joke, by the way, about my friend. He's my friend. Dave Strohmaier. So, Rita, what do you have for for a nugget?

Rita Hagler: [00:16:20] I'm to step outside the box a little bit and just share a couple of life lessons that I've learned. Great. That I'd like to pass along to others. First of all, I think it's really important. Everybody should learn this and live it. Treat others as you want to be treated. And that's kind of how I address customers that come in to permit. The other one is life is short. Eat cookies for breakfast.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:36] I like that. Thank you.

Rita Hagler: [00:16:39] They're awesome.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:40] Well, thanks a lot, guys, for coming by. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having us. Yeah. And thank you out there for listening. And we will catch you next time here at Tip of the Spear. Thanks for listening to the Tip of the Spear podcast. If you enjoy these conversations, it would mean a lot if you would rate and review the show on whichever podcast app you like. And if you know a friend who would like to keep up with what's happening in local government, be sure to recommend this podcast to them. The Tip of the Spear podcast is made possible with support from MCAD, better known as Missoula Community Access Television and our staff in the Missoula County Communications Division. If you have a question or topic you'd like us to address on a future episode, email it to communications@missoulacounty.us. And to find other ways to stay up to date with what's happening at Missoula County, go to Missoula.co/countyupdates and thanks for listening.