What's Going On With All These Bridges?

The Agenda's foray into transportation issues continues this week with Shane Stack, director of Missoula County Public Works, and Erik Dickson, county engineer.

With the recent closure of Maclay Bridge in Target Range, residents have a lot of questions about how we got here. The commissioners, Shane and Erik tackle those questions and much more in this episode. Be sure to follow this project on Missoula County Voice for more updates and information.

This episode has a lot of acronyms and engineering terms, so here's a guide for you, in alphabetical order:

• BIP: The Bridge Improvement Program, a funding opportunity administered by the Federal Highway Administration.
• Categorical exclusion, also called a CE or Cat Ex: A finding of a National Environmental Protection Act process that determines a project has no significant effect on the human environment. If a CE is granted, the project does not need an environmental assessment or environmental impact statement.  
• Creosote: A material derived from tar that is used to preserve wood.
• EA: Environmental assessment. If a categorical exclusion does not apply to a project, then an environmental assessment must be developed before the project can move forward. This is a public document that provides sufficient evidence and analysis for determining whether the project meets the criteria for a Finding of No Significant Environmental Impact (FONSI) or if an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) is needed. 
• Environmental Impact Statement (EIS): Federal agencies prepare an Environmental Impact Statement if a project is determined to significantly affect the quality of the human environment. The regulatory requirements for an EIS are more detailed and rigorous than the requirements for an EA.
• FHWA: The Federal Highway Administration, a division of the federal Department of Transportation.
• FONSI document: Finding of No Significant Impact. A FONSI document is the decision document of an EA and is signed by the federal agency.  
• HDR: An engineering firm employed by both Missoula County and MDT to assist with bridge planning.
• Load rating: The amount of weight a structure can safely carry. A load posted or load limited bridge is restricted by its load rating.
• Local option gas tax: A voter-approved 2-cent tax on gas sold within Missoula County. Revenue from this tax was specifically designated for road and bridge improvements. County residents approved this measure in 2020, but the state repealed in 2021. 
• MDT: Montana Department of Transportation, the state's transportation agency
• NEPA: National Environmental Protection Act, passed in 1970 to promote and protect the environment. 

Click here for the full glossary.

Thank you to Missoula's Community Media Resource for podcast recording support!

Transcript

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:10] Welcome back to the agenda with your Missoula County Commissioners. I'm Josh Slotnick and I'm here with my fellow Commissioner Juanita Vero. Dave is out of the office this week. Our guest today are joining us from Public Works. Could you guys introduce yourselves?

Erik Dickson: [00:00:22] Sure. Uh, Erik Dickson, I am the county engineer.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:25] All right.

Shane Stack: [00:00:26] And Shane Stack, I'm the public works director.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:28] Awesome. Thank you.

Juanita Vero: [00:00:29] How long have you been with the county? That'll help listeners.

Erik Dickson: [00:00:32] Uh, I have been here 22 and, uh, almost a half year now. 

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:37] Dang. Thanks.

Erik Dickson: [00:00:37] October was my 22 year anniversary.

Shane Stack: [00:00:40] Wow. Tons of institutional knowledge. Yeah, invaluable.

Erik Dickson: [00:00:43] What kind of institution?

Shane Stack: [00:00:46] And almost five years. I'm like, yeah, a couple months away from five.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:51] It was one of the very first things I did as be part of the crew that hired Shane, like my third day or something. It was. Yeah, it was a good move. It was a good move. And then Shane followed me to my office and said, do you know about the gas tax? and said, "We need more money to fix roads!"

Juanita Vero: [00:01:06] That's excellent. Well, I hope we talk more about that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:09] We will, we will.

Juanita Vero: [00:01:10] So Maclay bridge. Go. Why is it closed? Go.

Shane Stack: [00:01:16] Why don't you go, Eric?

Erik Dickson: [00:01:17] Oh, I get the first one. The easy one. Okay, so. So, uh, we received notice on Thursday the 25th, I believe it was, uh, actually, Shane had the courtesy of a phone call beforehand to say that we were going to be receiving a notice from MDT, that we were going to be required to close Maclay bridge. And so at 2:00 that day, we received the official notice. And the reason cited in the letter were that there were concerns with the structural steel. So the part of the bridge structure that holds the actual driving surface, there's been a lot of corrosion of the steel over the years, and they felt that it was no longer safe to carry traffic. So they told us that we needed to have that bridge closed to all traffic, including pedestrians and bicyclists.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:00] And when did they do their inspection?

Erik Dickson: [00:02:03] Uh, it was June of 2023.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:04] Okay, so you see, the next question is what? So have we been driving on a dangerous bridge since June?

Erik Dickson: [00:02:09] No, actually, MDT had a consultant do the inspection this time, I believe. And, you know, they complete their inspection, they give their report, all of their information to MDT. And then MDT has to go through their internal process to analyze the the report, conduct any new load rating analysis based on the information that was provided to them. So, you know, just work through their internal process as far as we understand. And by the time they completed that in January, they said, okay, this is this is a big deal. We need to have it closed.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:39] All right. So if I'm going to try and put that in layperson's terms, in June, somebody from MDT went and measured a bunch of things at the bridge, and then they took that info back and they crunched numbers and they ran through software and they did all that kind of magic engineering that happens on a computer. And when they figured it all out in January, then they told us, yes.

Juanita Vero: [00:02:57] Well, the valuation they, they... 

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:59] That's what I'm saying. Yeah. They crunched all those numbers and evaluation.

Juanita Vero: [00:03:03] But I was like, there's the numbers, the presentation. Then you have to like evaluate what's been presented to make sure that it really is all.

Josh Slotnick: [00:03:09] Part of I'm giving I'm giving them that grace that they made a bunch of measurements, took the results of the measurements, crunched them, evaluated them, added them up, and then came to a determination shortly after the determination was made. Then the bridge was closed. It wasn't as if the this determination was made in June and we hung out for six months.

Erik Dickson: [00:03:25] No, no, not at all.

Shane Stack: [00:03:26] And they and they have to do uh, kind of in that whole process is a load rating too. Right. So they, they're going to do the inspection. And then from the inspection the next step was all right, let's check this for a load rating. And then I think they also have a committee that at MDT that evaluates all this information. They don't just make random decisions. I mean, there's a group of people that sit down and say, all right, here's all the information we have. What should we be doing in this case? And I think at that point their their recommendation was to close it. And this is.

Josh Slotnick: [00:03:53] A physics decision. This isn't a political decision. This isn't a transportation decision. This is physics. Like how much weight can this bridge hold? Is that correct? Correct. So when people say or have asked, well, we should have had a public meeting to discuss this, the response is handed that to you. Well it's physics.

Shane Stack: [00:04:09] There's no need. There's no need for a public meeting. Right? I mean, you can't politicize the, the the ability of steel to to hold weight, right? I just it is or it isn't.

Josh Slotnick: [00:04:20] So next question. Because I live in the neighborhood, I get hit with this a lot. And these are totally, 100% very reasonable questions. Well, people sure weigh a lot less than cars. Why can't you let bikes and peds cross it?

Shane Stack: [00:04:30] Yeah, and one human doesn't probably make that much of a difference. Right? How do you control this? Right. How do you control 10 to 100, whatever that number is. And so I think just responsible just to to close it period. And it's the safest decision. Ultimately these decisions are all about safety and risk tolerance. Right. And we want to provide the safest situation as much as possible. And then, you know, also consider risk. You know, what's the lowest risk decision that we can make. Right. So and I did some measuring I think from the intersection of river pines and Blue Mountain. If you loop that all the way around to like the intersection of South Avenue and Reserve Street, it's like three miles, right? So it's a it's an additional three. Three mile route to get to kind of that same spot. So that doesn't mean that everybody's additional route is three more miles. Yeah. It's more inconvenient. Yeah. Right. And so we're looking at it and just saying, look, we're going to take inconvenience over the risk of anybody being hurt. And just the safest decision that we can make.

Juanita Vero: [00:05:27] Going back to the the timing of it all or the notification to the public, why couldn't of, uh, you know, a week ahead, a week before MDT, give you guys a heads up to say, hey, this is going to close in a week.

Shane Stack: [00:05:41] I think they could have not necessarily said it's going to close in a week. I think what they could have done is just said, hey, we've done a load rating, we've done an inspection. It's potential that we might close it in a week, but we're going to have conversations internally. But I don't know enough. And Eric, maybe, you know, I just don't know enough about their internal process to know, like if is there that much time in between their decisions? I just don't know the flexibility.

Josh Slotnick: [00:06:05] So so then the two questions I've been getting hit with a lot are is there a short terme fix on Maclay Bridge that we can do without? A lot of money won't take too much time. So until the South Avenue bridge is built, we'll get a bridge to cut this three miles or three miles plus, and then cut out that disruption and inconvenience that some people are facing. That's the first question. And then the second one is when's the South Avenue Bridge can happen. So you guys want to take those two on?

Shane Stack: [00:06:29] I'll answer South Avenue and then I'll leave it to you to, because Eric's actually been looking really hard at what the repairs might be. And we've had conversations with Dustin Gyros at HDR so we don't have the answers down 100% right now, but I think we've got a pretty good idea of the direction we're going to be going. But I don't know that we're 100% yet there yet, and.

Erik Dickson: [00:06:51] I don't know if it's that big of a deal to say. I mean, because because that is part of I mean, part of the question is, are there repairs that can be made? Yeah. Or not. When and when, when.

Josh Slotnick: [00:06:58] When would they be made if they can be made.

Erik Dickson: [00:07:00] And so, you know, HDR.

Josh Slotnick: [00:07:02] HDR is the engineering firm we've hired to take a look.

Erik Dickson: [00:07:05] At it. Well, not only they have a dual role here. So they've been working on the South Avenue Bridge for us since 2015. But they are also under contract with MDT to work statewide on a number of issues. That was at Senate Bill 536 that provided this funding. So the state legislature set aside several tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars. I can't remember what the number was...

Shane Stack: [00:07:29] $100 million.

Erik Dickson: [00:07:30] $100 million. And so part of that money is available to local jurisdictions like us to make, I don't want to say minimal repairs, but make repairs on their infrastructure, especially bridges. Well, only bridges that will help extend their service life. And so HDR is working with MDT in that realm, aside from working with Missoula County on South Avenue Bridge. So HDR is very knowledgeable of Maclay bridge and the entire process. And, you know, that's one thing that we still need to confer with them and MDT to determine if the repairs that I think we can make are going to be sufficient to reopen that bridge. You know, the residents in the area obviously know that we've repaired the deck on that bridge many times. We have to remove the asphalt and the concrete and then the steel decking underneath. So we expose these steel stringers that hold up the driving surface. Well, it's those steel stringers that are the issue at hand right now. So we've been through that process before. All we have to do is go one step further to remove the stringers and replace them. In my mind, it works. It's a very simple task to replace that in kind. For the amount of work that we've done in the past, our crews have the ability to do that work. So if we can get an approval from HDR and MDT that says, yes, that would be adequate to replace that in kind, just on those spots that are the worst. As far as the corrosion goes in the steel, it is physically possible for us to do the work. It doesn't appear to be a large cost for just materials right now. So that's something we just have to continue to work out with MDT and HDR to see if we can start those repairs and get the bridge open, and that.

Juanita Vero: [00:09:12] Money comes from how is it paid for?

Erik Dickson: [00:09:15] Well, that would depend either locally or if that Senate bill 536 funding is available seems to be in the range. I think MDT anticipated about what, $20,000 per bridge? I know that's what we've discussed.

Shane Stack: [00:09:28] Well, no, it's it's more than that. It's whatever the cost is to do the quick fix. Right, right. So, um.

Josh Slotnick: [00:09:34] That's from the Senate bill.

Shane Stack: [00:09:35] Yeah. Senate Bill 536 and there's 20 million of that 100 million from Senate. Bill 536 is dedicated to these quick fixes. So Glacier Creek Bridge up in Condon is a perfect example of right now we've got an agreement with MDT. We're going to receive close to $40,000 to do just the engineering, and then we'll have to figure out what they're going to fund in construction. We're thinking that all in. It's probably 100, 120,000. Maybe it's going to be north of that. This project, though I think has the potential to be significantly less. Um, wow. And it really like that.

Juanita Vero: [00:10:06] I was not expecting that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:10:06] Potential, has potential. That's capital P.

Shane Stack: [00:10:09] Well and it depends. It's like, you know, what I would say is if we can just address the localized issue of concern right now and that's it, and we're good. I think it's going to be a very affordable repair. Um, and, you know, if MDT is willing to kick in Senate Bill 536 funding, which it appears that it meets all their criteria and requirements to be eligible, then.

Josh Slotnick: [00:10:30] Hey, so right now I understand it, right? We're waiting for basically a prescription that the engineering firm HDR, we don't know if it's this week, next week. It's somewhere in the short, short terme amount of time they're going to get with us and say, here's the prescription for a repair and here's what will they also give a cost estimate, or will you guys have to come up with that? I think it'll.

Shane Stack: [00:10:49] Be both of us.

Josh Slotnick: [00:10:50] It'll be both.

Shane Stack: [00:10:50] Because HDR is so used to doing engineering work for contractors. The fact that we're doing the work, then it just becomes a material cost. And if we want to include labor costs too, right. But I think the repairs that we've made in the past, we've had the bridge shut down for a week. Yeah, right. And so I think this probably fits within that realm of, gosh, we could probably get it done in a week. But again, is it just that localized repair or are we going to be chasing this thing for, you know, the entire length of the deck trying to fix stuff? So anyway, those are I don't know.

Juanita Vero: [00:11:19] Oh, you won't know until you get in there how bad it is.

Shane Stack: [00:11:22] Oh no, no, I think we know. But I just don't know. Like if if the expectation is going to be like, if you fix that one abutment. I don't know if the west abutments, I mean as bad.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:32] It depends if I understand it. Right. I'm what HDR says. And then if it's something that our public works folks can do, we will. If it's not, we'll have to hire it out. If it's a dollar amount we can afford, we'll do it. If it's not, and even if it is, we'll attempt to get some of this Senate bill money.

Erik Dickson: [00:11:48] Yeah, yeah, I think it'll ultimately be a decision for the county HDR and MDT. So hopefully we all agree that that is something that we can do reasonably and have it open in time to.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:58] I've been asked by neighbors, is there anything we can do? Can we call Tester? What can we do to make this happen? What would your response be to that?

Shane Stack: [00:12:05] Well, Tester's office has already been in touch with me asking for information so that the senator can go advocate on our behalf for funding or help with, you know, through the Nepa process, whatever, whatever help we need, they're willing to that's great to try to provide that. I don't know if we're done with question one, but maybe we can jump back to where are we on South Avenue. Right. And when is it going to be, you know, when could a new South Avenue bridge be constructed? So right now we're trying to complete the Nepa document. And in order to complete the Nepa document, we have to complete the section 106 process. And that's part of the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, I think. So essentially trying to get a programmatic agreement completed, which would spell out precise mitigation for any impacts to the existing structure. Right. So the existing structure is older than 50 years, and it's on the National Historic Preservation Lot list… 

Erik Dickson: registry. 

Shane Stack: There you go. And so because of that, now we're going through this process of this section 106. And you what's interesting is if the county just funded the removal of the bridge today, there would be no historic structure there to worry about, and then Nepa would become so much easier. But there's a cost associated with that as well, right? Like you're probably looking at a half $1 million to demo the existing bridge.

Josh Slotnick: [00:13:21] Let's see. We were to skip the section 106 process. That's the historical review. That's part of the National Environmental Protection Act. Would the money we were we are supposed to get from the Montana Department of Transportation to cover the costs of the entire project of rebuilding South Avenue. Would that money include the demolition of the old bridge?

Shane Stack: [00:13:40] No. And the reason why we have to go through all this process is because you're spending federal dollars. And, you know, those requirements are as a result of, you know, spending federal dollars on any type of project. So if we take the federal money away and we're just using local funding, for instance, then there's there's really nothing stopping us from right, demoing our bridge. And when I say our bridge, it's the county's bridge.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:02] But without federal money, we don't have a new bridge.

Shane Stack: [00:14:05] Exactly. But you don't. You could separate the two. You can. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we could demo the existing bridge and then Nepa or the National Environmental Policy Act. Okay. Sorry. Signing a categorical exclusion becomes so much easier because then you don't have to go through the section 106 process. Right? Okay. You know, try to get a programmatic agreement. So yeah it just.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:25] So we could do that. Let's paint an aspirational situation here where we get a prescription from HDR. It's $15,000. You guys have your crew do it. It's done in two weeks. Three weeks we are up and running. Meanwhile, the South Avenue Bridge process moves along. The bridge gets built. It's ready to go. Cars are about to cross it. We then demo the old bridge.

Shane Stack: [00:14:47] And that's how it's going to work. Except that it's the demolition is funded through federal aid. If we do, if we do it, then we got to come up with the money to do it.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:57] That's the difference. And if we do it, we don't have to go through the process because we're not taking the federal money, but we still have to come up with the money.

Shane Stack: [00:15:04] Yeah. And I and I think we're so close to finishing section 106 that it wouldn't make sense for us to. To go any other direction right now. And really where we're at is trying to clearly define what steps would need to be taken by an individual, that or a group that wanted to adopt the bridge in place. What would they have to do to adopt the bridge? What does that mean they would own? They would become the owner of that bridge. And what would have to happen is they would have to probably lift the bridge. And I don't know yet, because HDR is still trying to evaluate what they would have to do. My guess is that they would have to raise the bridge so that it, you know, there's no impact as far as high water or flooding events. Right? You've got to end up with a no rise situation. When we put in the South Avenue, and that was one of the main reasons why we have to remove the existing structure is that when we put a new South Avenue bridge in the existing structure actually creates a higher water right in high flow. So in locations you've got localized flooding. And so if you remove that structure then there's no increase in rise of the water. Right. And so we're we're required by state statute to have a no rise.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:11] So the floodplain maps, these draft floodplain maps that are out right now the DEQ put out that have 100 year event breaching the deck of the bridge. Is that because of the level of the bridge, or is that because of the effect on high water due to the construction of a new bridge?

Shane Stack: [00:16:27] I think the new modeling is all about just new data. I think.

Juanita Vero: [00:16:31] It doesn't take into account it's not.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:32] About a new bridge, it's just new data.

Shane Stack: [00:16:34] No, I think you realize, like, I think the modeling was done probably in the 80s last time. I'm going off memory. So I think it was the 80s. And at that time we didn't have drones and lidar right to just go measure this stuff. So they were out there with, you know, survey equipment and just crossing the river and trying to get an idea of of what the terrain looks like. So their data was really limited. And now they have this unbelievable amount of data and the ability to model it. And so that's the big difference.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:03] So if somebody was to adopt this bridge they'd have to lift it up. So it's in that. No right. It's above the level of the 100 year event.

Shane Stack: [00:17:11] And not creating any impact where right. The if there is that 100 year event that there is a um, an increase in, in the height of the flood as a result of leaving the structure.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:21] So that's kind of a response to another question I've been getting, which was, okay, well, South Avenue Bridge is getting built. Can't the old bridge stay where it is for bikes and peds? And the answer is going to be sure if somebody adopts it, lifts it up, puts it back down again, and.

Shane Stack: [00:17:35] There's going to be a cost associated with that. And it's probably a big number. So let's get back to that. That first question though, like where are we. Yeah. So you know, I think once we get through Nepa and I think and that's essentially signing the categorical exclusion and FHWa will sign the categorical exclusion. And we can only do that once the section 106 or the programmatic agreement is signed. So we're looking at probably June for that to happen. And I'm thinking probably July or August for the categorical exclusion to be signed. But it could be quicker. End result of all of that is Missoula County would complete the scope of work, sign an agreement with MDT. Mdt would then take over the delivery of the project from there, get it to 100% plans, acquire the right of way, relocate utilities, all those things to get it to to construction. And then right now, the current schedule does show that construction is feasible in the summer of 2026. Right now, with everything we have completed and everything that's still left to go, which is promising. I've been a little nervous that, yeah, we weren't going to be able to make it, but.

Juanita Vero: [00:18:38] Okay, okay. And then construction. But going back to why, why can't Maclay bridge be replaced where it's at in this exact same spot?

Shane Stack: [00:18:46] It could. We just probably can't use federal funding to do it. So if we wanted to replace it with local funds, we could. But we don't have millions of dollars in the the bridge fund to do that type of work. And so if we're going to rely on the off system bridge program, this is the answer. And I think, you know, there's been an environmental assessment done, but there was no Fonsi or decision document Fonzie's finding of no significant impact. That's the decision document. So in 1994 the an EA was completed, but no Fonsi was signed. Right. So there was no completed environmental document. Fast forward to what, 2010 2011? Mdt began a cooperation coordination with Missoula County, started the pre Nepa study. I think that was finished in 2013, and there's a lot of information that details out the evaluation of all the different options that were considered as part of that study. And part of the evaluation was let's build a bridge on River Pines to North Avenue, where the existing Maclay bridge is. Either replace that one altogether, or keep that bridge and rehabilitate it. All those types of things. But at the end of the day, to stay on the existing alignment is not possible. If we were going to put it on a the roadway, river pines, if you put that on a different alignment to just keep the crossing at North Avenue, you start to take out all the homes that are on River Pines because you need that realignment of. River Pines, right? So I don't know. The simplest solution is to just run it straight over to South Avenue. The other thing, too, is you can look at this from an operational perspective. If we were going to build a new bridge today and nothing exists out there and the existing road network is there the way it is today with no houses, South Avenue would be the best choice because South Avenue runs all the way to the university. 

Josh Slotnick: [00:20:30] It's a major road.

Shane Stack: [00:20:31] Major road, major road, right, and North Avenue, dead ends, like, you know, probably less than a mile from the bridge end. It just it doesn't make a lot of sense to to put the the bridge there today. And I understand why there are folks that are opposed. If I lived on South Avenue and there was, you know, 2 or 300 vehicles a day, and then it was going to jump to 4000 vehicles a day, I would be disappointed with that. I can I completely understand and empathize with the folks that live on South Avenue that are opposed to the bridge project I would probably be opposed to, but we have to, as representatives of the county, look at this holistically, and we can't just look at one group of of our county and constituents and say, oh, you know, it's a small group. We're going to just do this in a way that pleases just you, because the rest of the county has to be considered. And there are folks on North Avenue that, you know, would be in the same boat. So it's not like if you build a new bridge on North Avenue that there's no impacts there. So there's going to be impacts no matter what we do. And so then you've got to look at it and say, all right, what's the best decision that we can make for everybody in the county?

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:29] That is the hardest, hardest thing right there it is. So it looks like we're headed towards 2026. What are some things that could slow that down right away.

Shane Stack: [00:21:38] Acquisition.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:39] You describe what that is.

Shane Stack: [00:21:40] Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:40] In Layperson's terms.

Shane Stack: [00:21:41] Yeah of course. So and these are the things that will delay or could delay any project. Right. So National Environmental Policy Act. Right. There's the first one and we've, we're trying to get over that first hurdle that probably delayed this project years. It takes time to get through Nepa right away. Acquisition I think is probably the next one. A right of way acquisition is is essentially acquiring easements or fee title of property that's needed to construct whatever infrastructure you're trying to build, whether that's road bridge, utilities. So the county doesn't have all the easements needed for the road or the bridge. And so we're going to have to acquire the needed easements.

Josh Slotnick: [00:22:18] What's MDT's role in that?

Shane Stack: [00:22:20] Well, they're going to be the the body that's going to handle that acquisition okay. And whether they have to go through condemnation or if folks are just willing to sell. But if you go through condemnation, it can take a while.

Josh Slotnick: [00:22:31] And that would that would be MDT doing that.

Juanita Vero: [00:22:33] And when you say take a while, what are we talking about?

Shane Stack: [00:22:35] I guess I've seen it take like two years. But I also know that past legislative sessions, there were laws passed with language related to speeding up that process. Right? To keep it closer to like a six month period. Um, because MDT had projects delayed years because of right of way acquisition. But I was trying to figure out how many parcels we'd need. I'm guessing there's probably six, seven, maybe eight landowners that will have to work with to acquire all the the property.

Josh Slotnick: [00:23:04] Yeah, I can only imagine how awful this will be for those eight landowners who are vehemently opposed to this project. And then MDT will approach them and say, hey, we want to buy some of your land so we can do the project you hate. And then the landowners say, for no amount of money would I allow this to happen. And then MDT says, okay, we're going to take your land. This is just awful. They'll get market value for it. But I can only I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of these eight families, eight households, and this will feel awful for them.

Shane Stack: [00:23:34] And it doesn't necessarily mean that all eight families are going to feel awful, because some of them are going to be on River Pines. Right? And the folks on the River Pines side may not care. Right? Right. Either way, you know, whether it's a bridge on north or a bridge on south, those folks end up with the same situation.

Josh Slotnick: [00:23:50] So River Pines folks already have traffic going by their house. So this isn't a change. But for the South Avenue folks, it's a mega change. Yeah, there's.

Shane Stack: [00:23:58] Probably three, I would say three, maybe four homes on that South Avenue side. Yeah.

Juanita Vero: [00:24:04] And no homes will be removed in this process because we've been getting, um, no mythical sort of story. And I think, I think people are confusing it with if you were to rearrange Maclay, then aren't there some houses that have to be.

Shane Stack: [00:24:21] Yeah. If you're going to realign River Pines. Yes.

Shane Stack: [00:24:24] Yeah. To, to build North Avenue.

Juanita Vero: [00:24:26] No homes will be removed with the South Avenue bridge going where it's proposed to go now.

Shane Stack: [00:24:31] I don't believe so. There are some manufactured homes kind of near the end of the bridge, and I don't know if they'll need to be moved at all, but those are ones that are probably easier to shift if you need to. But no, like foundation homes are going to be impacted, but I don't think anything has to be moved. But that's the only location that makes me a little nervous. But.

Josh Slotnick: [00:24:54] So I'm kind of staying on this theme, but shifting a little bit up in Bigfork, similar thing has happened. And then we saw this with our Boy Scout bridge in our own county, and then a couple other bridges up north in our county that are now load limited. What's going on with all these? Ridges deteriorating at the same time.

Shane Stack: [00:25:11] Well, they're getting older. It doesn't mean that they're the same age, I think, um, gosh, Boy Scout was, what, 1933, 38, 38? Okay. And then this one's what the. These structures were constructed then the 1920s, placed there in the 1919 Maclay bridge was placed there in 1953. But the structures themselves were built in the 20s. Right. So they're they're old, I want to say big for was it I think it's big for Oak Street Bridge, I think bridge bridge Street. Bridge Street. Yeah. Yeah. Bridge Street. I mean I think that was a, that's a 20 vintage as well. I mean yeah.

Erik Dickson: [00:25:45] If you look at the photos it looks extremely similar to Maclay. So I think they're yeah same vintage.

Josh Slotnick: [00:25:50] So basically these things were built at roughly the same time. So they've aged simultaneously. Yeah.

Shane Stack: [00:25:55] You know what's interesting too. So the bridge in Big Fork and Maclay bridge, they're so similar. So there's opposition obviously from the folks that are on South Avenue and probably elsewhere. Um, you don't have to be just on South Avenue to, to oppose the Maclay bridge or the South Avenue Bridge and replacement. Same kind of story in Big Fork, where I think there were a lot of folks in the downtown area that liked that old structure. And when I was working for MDT, we went through a process with the community to say, all right, here's what it's going to take. If you want to rehabilitate this bridge and keep the same bridge, here's what we have to do. It's essentially going to take replacing probably 80% of the components of the bridge. So you would essentially lift that bridge, set it, tear it down. Meanwhile no traffic can cross right. Tear it all apart, put it all back together with 80% new steel and then lift it, set it back in place. And that's going to take more than all summer. It's going to take a long period of time. Or we can get a new truss. We can still get an old style single lane truss. All brand new. Bring it in. All in one piece. Crane out the old one, crane in the new one, build new foundation. And it's done in a matter of probably a few months rather than, I don't know, seven, eight months. I don't know how long that was going to take. But at the end of the day, I think they realized that what they thought was going to be their old bridge was not going to be their old bridge. So after recognizing that they were fully supportive of replacing that bridge with a new truss.

Josh Slotnick: [00:27:20] So so I want to ask you kind of a single lane bridge question. So I asked you about this shortly after this whole thing came up, after we both started. And you definitely helped to kind of change my thoughts around this. If I remember right, I was pretty concerned that a one lane bridge becoming a two lane bridge was going to greatly increase the amount of traffic going through the target Range Orchard Homes neighborhood, because people would use that as a cut off as a way to dodge the knot of traffic that is Brooks and Reserve and get to downtown or kind of part of central Missoula and that this would really be a big shift for the folks who lived in those neighborhoods. Now there's going to be tons of traffic, and that that single lane really functioned as kind of traffic calming. And I remember right, you were describing to me there are other things that could be done to mitigate such a thing.

Shane Stack: [00:28:07] Yeah, yeah, we can talk about mitigation and we can also talk about travel times too. So it is a comfortable drive, right? It is it is comfortable.

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:15] It's beautiful actually.

Shane Stack: [00:28:16] Right. And it doesn't you don't have to drive fast. You know you're not having to go down 93. I know there's some.

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:21] Incredibly gorgeous architecture on that section of Brook Street that a lot of people don't want to miss. But if You... If you if you...Take Blue Mountain Road, you do get the Bitterroot River, right. golden trees during the fall. It's really beautiful.

Shane Stack: [00:28:34] Yeah. And so I guess where I was going with this is that travel times are greater, right? If you want to go along Blue Mountain and loop around South Avenue and and even take Clements and third. Right. It's just yeah. Going to take it takes.

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:46] Exactly the route I'm talking about.

Shane Stack: [00:28:47] It takes longer. Right. And so when you do those evaluations, I think most folks were saying I'll just stay on the, on the main route and get there faster. Right. They just and some folks like they may want to go slower and just enjoy it. And that's going to be their choice. What you can do though is things like narrowing the roads up. Yeah. So South Avenue for instance, we're already headed that direction with the designs that we have for South Avenue from the bridge all the way to Reserve Street. And there's funding for for South Avenue from Reserve Street to Clements.

Josh Slotnick: [00:29:19] Is this a reconnect the reconnecting Communities grant?

Shane Stack: [00:29:21] No, it's the safe streets.

Josh Slotnick: [00:29:23] Safe streets for all? 

Shane Stack: [00:29:24] Right. Yeah. And so we can do things like add sidewalks, curb and gutter, narrow this up so that people are feel a little it's a little friction. Right side friction. They drive slower. So it's probably more between Clements and the bridge is where I think you'll see the the most impact of that narrowing. Just because we have the irrigation ditch at the, at the same location, and the right of way is just so narrow that everything has to be crammed in there. So that side friction hopefully slows people down. And I would tell you from the Mullan build all the roads that we built on Mullan build, we had really narrow driving lanes in spots. And you know, when we were we hadn't put any pavement markings down and we were getting calls from people saying, I have to slow down when I go through here. And we're like, perfect. Yes, that's it worked. And they're like, but we don't want I don't want to slow down. And I'm like, well.

Josh Slotnick: [00:30:12] The people who have all the houses nearby will be very glad you're slowing down.

Shane Stack: [00:30:16] So I think we know that it'll work. It's just a matter of getting the funding to implement the plans. So hopefully that's what you were getting at. Josh. Yeah, we.

Josh Slotnick: [00:30:24] Can do things through design to mitigate the effects of more traffic, and we won't see the transformation of a really quiet neighborhood into something else.

Juanita Vero: [00:30:32] So what's going to happen to Maclay Bridge once the new bridge is built?

Shane Stack: [00:30:35] I don't know, you want me to answer, or you or...?

Erik Dickson: [00:30:37] You've. Got a good roll going here.

Shane Stack: [00:30:41] It depends. Uh, if somebody adopts it and they want to adopt in place, um, they're going to have to go through a lot of process to adopt in place. There's also an adoption.

Juanita Vero: [00:30:50] Is there an adoption timeline, if you like. Okay. Whoever wants to adopt this bridge and raise it and do all the things, you got to do it within X amount of time or this is thing is coming out because all the.

Shane Stack: [00:31:00] Hazards, I would imagine I've only seen a handful of bridges adopted from a distance. So I don't know if there was like this. You got to have it out of here by X date or you know, it's coming down. But I would imagine there's got to be some sort of timelines that it impact the removal. So anyway, so you can adopt in place or they could adopt, uh, you know, take it somewhere else and it'll most of that will cost, I think for relocating it would have to be borne by whoever's adopting it. Mdt would essentially put the value of demolition towards the adoption so they could, you know, they could have potentially have funding to help them relocate it. So those are two options of adoption. And then the last one is just demo and removing it.

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:41] And to be clear at this point the county doesn't have any appetite for us adopting the bridge due primarily to the extreme cost of lifting it up and rebuilding it and setting it back down, which I know a lot of folks would say, well, you should keep this for bikes and peds, but that's a very expensive, very expensive change. And the new bridge is going to have bike ped facilities. Yep.

Shane Stack: [00:32:01] And I think if you know, the county wanted to have that span in place, not the existing structure, but you could build a new bridge probably more affordably and span that probably I would guess it'd be a two span. I don't know, Eric. What you think you might? I think.

Erik Dickson: [00:32:16] So make it a little more.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:17] Feasible. But again, even if it's affordable, we have to cover it with local tax money. And the bridge that's going to be built is not local property tax dollars.

Shane Stack: [00:32:25] Yeah. Or you get grants. So it could be it doesn't necessarily mean that it's never going to happen. It certainly could be something that is a focal point in the future. It's just I don't know that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:33] A bike-ped bridge?

Shane Stack: [00:32:33]  Yep. Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:35] A completely... 

Juanita Vero: [00:32:35] Like what's out in Bonner?

Shane Stack: [00:32:36] Yep.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:36] Non-motorized... I see.

Juanita Vero: [00:32:38] Yeah okay. If there's no bridge there is there still public access down to the water.

Shane Stack: [00:32:43] Yeah. The easements run right up to the water as I understand it. So you'd still be able to get to the water.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:48] And I guess it remains to be seen if there would be demand for a bike ped bridge there after the new bridge is built with bike ped facilities. So it would be it would seemingly be redundant. But I guess we'll find out.

Juanita Vero: [00:33:00] Yeah. We got to talk about the northern bridges. Oh yeah, the North and the north.

Shane Stack: [00:33:05] Okay. 

Josh Slotnick: [00:33:06] Tell us about the five bridges plan.

Speaker5: [00:33:07] All right.

Josh Slotnick: [00:33:08] Five bridges project.

Shane Stack: [00:33:09] So yeah. Um, maybe we can just talk about the, uh, maybe the bridges that we have in Missoula County. We've got five that are load posted and four that are scour critical.

Josh Slotnick: [00:33:19] So can you define those two for sure folks up there in the audience.

Shane Stack: [00:33:23] So some of these older bridges were designed to carry loads from years ago. And they're not designed to carry the loads that we see today. And they're also aging, which means that not only were they designed for probably smaller loads, but the members that are there today have deteriorated a certain amount, and so their capacity is even less. And so, again, just like Maclay bridge, they've evaluated those structures. They've told us, here's the loading that we want to see you post this bridge at. And so we post that. And that's the essentially the load limit for vehicles crossing the structure. So we've got five of those bridges. And Maclay is one of them. And you know the plan hopefully is to replace that one Boy Scout bridge which was closed late last year like it was October, November when we got that closure notice. And then oh gosh, Glacier Creek sunset, which one you're familiar with. And then Styler Drive up in Condon is another load posted. So those are our five load posted bridges.

Juanita Vero: [00:34:18] And is that riverview... Or river...?

Shane Stack: [00:34:20] River view drive and Seeley was load posted. Oh, okay. Um, it's no longer load posted MDT uh, change your mind change. Well, they changed their process for evaluating the loads and so that one was load posted and LaSalle was load posted too. And we both of those are no longer load posted.

Erik Dickson: [00:34:39] They found the fountain of youth.

Juanita Vero: [00:34:41] Wow.

Josh Slotnick: [00:34:41] I got to get some of that.

Erik Dickson: [00:34:42] Yeah, like they're like fine wine. They get better with age. But just those two. Everything else continues to get older.

Josh Slotnick: [00:34:49] All right.

Shane Stack: [00:34:50] But we do like essentially a strategy to to try to, you know, start addressing those structures. The other issue that I mentioned was scour critical. So what does that mean real quick. Yeah. Bridges that are over water. They they'll have either their footing foundation abutments, whatever it is they're susceptible to water. Eroding the material around them, and to the point where if you're on a spread footing, that footing starts to move, and that's what your bridge is sitting on. And then, you know, there's a what are.

Juanita Vero: [00:35:17] Those four bridges that you said were scour critical?

Shane Stack: [00:35:19] Oh, um, Rock Creek Bridge, which is the most popular right now? Yeah. Which it actually is.

Erik Dickson: [00:35:24] It's a race with McLay now, I think.

Josh Slotnick: [00:35:26] Yeah, that's a big deal.

Shane Stack: [00:35:28] As far as popularity that scour critical. Yeah. Popular Schwartz Creek, which is just downstream. I hate to say this Boy Scout bridge in Seeley, but it's the second one. But it's been scour critical for a while, so it's not as risky. And then Cold Creek up in Condon. Oh, I.

Juanita Vero: [00:35:45] Thought Cold Creek was load posted.

Shane Stack: [00:35:46] It's not, it's not. No, it's just it's scour critical okay. And so we've got five bridges that right now we're focused on. We've developed preliminary engineering reports for multiple bridges. But these five structures is the focus just mainly because of the proximity. I think it makes sense to to kind of bundle your bridges and based on location and also need to. So we'll replace sunset, Riverview Boy Scout, Boy Scout that's closed. And then Glacier and Cold Creek and Glacier and Cold Creek are up in Condon. So those five bridges, the cost right now if you look at including inflation, all your engineering, everything, and assuming this happens in 2027, you're probably $28.5 million to replace. And so Missoula County doesn't have that funding available. And so we're going to apply for a raise grant, which is rebuilding America's infrastructure with sustainability and equity. That's that's raised. And it's just federal funding. It's part of the bipartisan infrastructure law. Kind of our second plan of attack is using the Bridge Investment Program, or Bip. It has a match requirement of 10%. And so we wouldn't be able to do all three just because of the funding limitations. But it would be sunset, Boy Scout and Glacier and all three of those are load posted. So we would take care of those three. And then at that point you're down to two bridges that are load posted. One of those is McLay and that's obviously already funded. The last one is Tyler Drive. Um, I was looking at in our notes, Eric, and I think that one was listed at 22. But I know you've told me that's like 30 tonne load limit to.

Erik Dickson: [00:37:16] 31 tons.

Shane Stack: [00:37:16] 31 tons. So it serves like, I don't know.

Speaker5: [00:37:19] Seven, seven.

Erik Dickson: [00:37:21] Maybe residential properties.

Josh Slotnick: [00:37:22] Oh geez. Yeah. Wow.

Shane Stack: [00:37:24] So you know it's like how do you spend a bunch of money trying to replace that for seven, five, seven homes?

Josh Slotnick: [00:37:31] And Juanita and I are going to be in DC next week, and we will be speaking with our congressional delegation about the Five Bridges Project and the raise grant, and hopefully convince them that this is the best thing to do for Missoula County.

Shane Stack: [00:37:42] Yeah. And then as as far as scour critical to we're looking to address those structures too. So we're kind of plan it just takes money. Right. And I think fortunately right now there's a lot of federal infrastructure money available. This type of funding has not been available. This is just as a result of the bipartisan infrastructure law really is.

Josh Slotnick: [00:38:02] Um, is there a similar short terme fix on Boy Scout that might work with Maclay, or is it an entirely different issue?

Shane Stack: [00:38:08] It's a different issue. We've talked about what those short terme fixes might be. And Eric, I don't know if you want to talk a little.

Josh Slotnick: [00:38:14] Bit because I know that that bridge has a constituency, as does Maclay.

Erik Dickson: [00:38:17] Sure. So kind of I don't know if it's a short history, but so of course, that bridge was built in 1938 and it has timber piling. And so at the water level, all those timber piling, even though they were heavily treated with creosote and survived for a long time, they were rotten at the water level. And so in the mid 1980s, the county went in and did what they call posting. And so they cut out the portions of the piling at that time that were bad, and then they just put a band around it to hold it in place. So that just takes the vertical load. Well, with the bridge like that, it has a lot of lateral force on it as well, and we could not replace any other piling without losing the lateral stability. So the piling that we're original and left in place that could, you know, theoretically handle that lateral load are now deteriorating to the point where they are almost failing just under the vertical weight of the bridge. So replacing those was, you know, not an option. As Shannon had mentioned, we'd been considering the idea of trying to drive new piling either on the sides of the bridge and put a new steel stringer between those to help carry that load. Or, you know, I think a less feasible option was to try to go through the deck. Well, the problem with that is the bridge can't carry the weight of the equipment that would be needed to do that work. So it's just there's not much we can do with that one.

Josh Slotnick: [00:39:37] Yeah. Can we do gas tax and and nuggets of wisdom in five minutes.

Shane Stack: [00:39:42] Let's do gas tax.

Josh Slotnick: [00:39:43] Yeah Shane what happened to our gas tax.

Shane Stack: [00:39:46] So in 2020.

Juanita Vero: [00:39:48] And louder louder for the folks in the back.

Shane Stack: [00:39:51] In 2020 Missoula County threw a ballot at an election with all the folks registered to vote. And Missoula County passed a two cent local option gas tax. Legislature in 2021 essentially voted to eliminate the ability for local governments to have the local option gas tax. We were generating about 1.2 million in 2020 and 2021 annually. I would guess as we enter 2024, I would you'd have to think, as much as we've grown, it's got to be closer to like 1.3, maybe 1.4 million. And so when you look at over time, if we were able to collect that and use it towards infrastructure like bridges, we easily have money for match. And right now when I'm looking at like raise, for instance, I'm thinking we're probably going to be in it for about 2.8 million in match, potentially depending on how bids and things go. So that's a big number, right. And so two years of a gas tax could have easily covered that cost. And then you can save over years and maybe address some of these smaller bridges without even using grant funding. But the way it is right now, we don't have funding to do everything we need to do.

Josh Slotnick: [00:40:55] So when the legislature eliminated the ability for local governments to have a local option gas tax, did they do this in the general? The the hypothetical, they wanted to make sure across the state nobody did this. What was the impetus for them making this decision?

Shane Stack: [00:41:10] You want you want my opinion?

Josh Slotnick: [00:41:12] Yes. Yes. You're we I'm asking Shane Stack.

Shane Stack: [00:41:15] Well, I think it was obvious. Easy. You're a blue county and a red state. And I think they just looked at it and said, you know, we're just going to take it from me because we can. Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:41:23] I remember being at a committee meeting and standing shoulder to shoulder with the lobbyist from the Petroleum Association, and he crushed me. I talked about democracy and the will of the people and votes and keeping up with infrastructure and the fact that we have tourists that don't pay for the roads they drive on. And he just had to be from the petroleum industry, and that was that. It was very sad, really sad to see legislators who are not elected by folks here override the will of our voters. Yeah, I think that's called tyranny, but I'm not really a political scientist. I have to look into that.

Juanita Vero: [00:41:55] Well, um, yeah. On that note, and before we close. Yeah. Nuggets of wisdom. Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:42:00] What do you guys run into?

Juanita Vero: [00:42:01] Books, podcast films.

Josh Slotnick: [00:42:03] Ideas that you ran across. You're like, man, that was interesting. That was worth keeping in my head.

Juanita Vero: [00:42:07] Elder wisdom?

Shane Stack: [00:42:09] The last book you read?

Erik Dickson: [00:42:09] Oh, um, the most the most I've read lately is The Last Kids on Earth that I'm reading with my nine year old.

Josh Slotnick: [00:42:15] Oh nice job, Erik, that's awesome.

Erik Dickson: [00:42:18] So it's a it's a very great book about a not not quite post-apocalyptic world, but they're a group of kids out there trying to save the world from some bad guys.

Josh Slotnick: [00:42:28] Oh, great. Well done.

Shane Stack: [00:42:30] I'm also Doctor Seuss.

Juanita Vero: [00:42:32] What Doctor Seuss are you reading?

Erik Dickson: [00:42:34] This is a chapter book.

Shane Stack: [00:42:35] Oh, gosh. It's yeah, it's hop on pop and Green eggs and ham and all those... No, I would say.

Juanita Vero: [00:42:41] Aww, does Baby Shane like green eggs and ham?

Shane Stack: [00:42:41] Oh yeah. That's how can you not would you, could you, could you, could you, would you with it.

Josh Slotnick: [00:42:46] We should have tried that...Would you, could you have a gas tax with a Fox in a box?

Shane Stack: [00:42:51] That's awesome.

Josh Slotnick: [00:42:52] I will not have a gas tax for the box in a box!

Shane Stack: [00:42:56] But then the Republican eventually comes around and realizes that's not  that bad. That's pretty good.

Josh Slotnick: [00:43:01] Fixing roads is okay.Well, we gotta end this. I do want to say thank you guys so much for your service to us. You guys are both so good at your jobs, and we know that you all could both go work in the private sector for a whole lot money. And we are very, very fortunate to have you, Eric and Yushin with us feel it every time we interact with you. Awesome.

Juanita Vero: [00:43:20] Thank you. Well said. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Shane Stack: [00:43:22] Yeah. Thank you. It's great working for you guys.

Josh Slotnick: [00:43:24] Join us next time. Thanks. Thanks for listening to the agenda. If you enjoy these conversations, it would mean a lot. If you rate and review the show on whichever podcast app you use.

Juanita Vero: [00:43:34] And if you know a friend who would like to keep up with what's happening in local government, be sure to recommend this podcast to them.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:43:40] The agenda with The Missoula County Commissioners is made possible with support from Missoula Community Access Television, better known as mCAT, and our staff in the Missoula County Communications Division.

Josh Slotnick: [00:43:52] If you have a question or a topic you'd like us to discuss on a future episode, email it to communications@missoulacounty.us.

Juanita Vero: [00:44:00] To find out other ways to stay up to date with what's happening in Missoula County, go to Missoula.co/countyupdates.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:44:07] Thanks for listening.