New Floodplain Maps for Rock Creek and the Clark Fork and Bitterroot Rivers

Recently, the Montana Department of Natural Resources and Conservation and the Federal Emergency Management Agency published updated floodplain maps for Rock Creek and the Clark Fork and Bitterroot Rivers.

Missoula County Floodplain Administrator Matt Heimel joined the commissioners this week to discuss what homeowners need to know and the next steps in the adoption and regulation process. 

The preliminary maps will be presented to the Missoula County commissioners during their public meeting on Thursday, Nov. 6. See the agenda at missoula.co/bccmeetings.

Learn more at https://missoulacountyvoice.com/clark-fork-river-bitterroot-river-and-rock-creek-floodplain-mapping-update

Thank you to Missoula's Community Media Resource for podcast recording support!

Transcript

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:10] Okay. Welcome back to the agenda with your Missoula County Commissioners. I'm Dave Strohmaier I'm here with my fellow Commissioner Juanita Vero today. And, uh, hopefully we will be joined by our third commissioner here, uh, midway through this, uh, riveting episode of the agenda.

Juanita Vero: [00:00:28] And we're just in the hallway. We know he's on his way.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:30] And we are glad to have an encore performance today from Matt Heimel, our very own planner and floodplain administrator for Missoula County. Welcome back, Matt.

Matt Heimel: [00:00:42] Thank you. Happy to be here.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:44] Yeah. You. Is that sincere... Or...? Okay.

Matt Heimel: [00:00:48] I can say with a little bit more conviction.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:50] Okay. We like that conviction.

Juanita Vero: [00:00:52] Let's hear it. Let's hear it. How happy are you to be here? I am this is an exciting day.

Matt Heimel: [00:00:57] It's so exciting because I get to talk about floodplains, and I am always talking about floodplain management in the office, but rarely am I just talking about it in a recorded format.

Juanita Vero: [00:01:08] And we actually have some, some, some good news, some new news.

Matt Heimel: [00:01:11] Some new news. I have updates about the floodplain map update.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:01:15] Before we have updates about the floodplain map update, let's just go back to the very beginning here.

Matt Heimel: [00:01:21] Okay?

Dave Strohmaier: [00:01:22] What is a floodplain?

Juanita Vero: [00:01:23] Oh good question.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:01:25] And the mapping piece. What what does that amount to. And and I'll just leave it open. Just roll with.

Matt Heimel: [00:01:32] It. So and the basic sense the floodplain is the area of land that can be inundated. That's next to a water body that is not normally covered in water. That can be just an area next to a stream, a river next to the coast. And and when we have floodplain maps that we published, those are constructs that we come up with to assess risk and probability of flood hazards. So we have.

Juanita Vero: [00:01:56] So when you say we I'm sorry, get a little hung up there. We what does we mean?

Matt Heimel: [00:02:00] So we as a community try to manage flood risk through working with developers and identifying areas that are prone to flooding. One of the ways that we manage flood risk is by participating in the National Flood Insurance Program and in the National Flood Insurance Program, the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Fema prepares new flood plain maps, FEMA makes flood hazard determinations, those get published. And for a community to be eligible to have its residents purchase flood insurance and receive aid during a disaster, the community must reference those floodplain maps which were created by FEMA and regulate according to those.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:02:41] So let's let's unpack this just just a little. So this whole flood insurance thing. So I think I know the answer, but but, uh, I'll let you enlighten me nonetheless. Why would someone participate in the National Flood Insurance Program versus Is other types of insurance that folks think of where I just find an insurance agent and get insurance for my home. Is there some advantage, or is this the only only tool that might be available to some individuals?

Matt Heimel: [00:03:12] Private flood insurance is available. However, flood insurance purchased through the National Flood Insurance Program nfip that has the backing of the federal government are okay. And there are other programs mitigation grants that are available through through FEMA.

Juanita Vero: [00:03:27] What happens if the county chooses not to adopt the new maps? Why are we even being asked to adopt the new maps? We the county? I'm sorry.

Matt Heimel: [00:03:35] So that's so that the condition for the county or any community that's that's in the nfip is to adopt regulations that reference the maps that FEMA will publish. By doing so, there's a national standard of map products.

Juanita Vero: [00:03:50] But if the county chooses not to adopt the new maps.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:03:53] Yeah, just just game it out. So if hypothetically we decide, you know what, uh, FEMA we we don't like the the way you do this mapping, and it's just creating a lot of confusion in our community. We're just going to say thanks, but no thanks. We'll we'll, uh, we'll not have these FEMA floodplain.

Juanita Vero: [00:04:12] No, no.

Matt Heimel: [00:04:13] There there are some consequences there. Okay. If the county were to decide we're not going to adopt regulations that reference these maps, nobody in the county would be able to purchase flood insurance through the Nfip.

Juanita Vero: [00:04:25] Okay, but you could do it privately if you wanted to. If even if the county did not choose to adopt, you could still purchase insurance.

Matt Heimel: [00:04:32] You could. It might not be the the best option there. Now also, there's a federal law that when FEMA has published effective flood insurance rate maps, if somebody wants to get a federally backed loan like a mortgage on that property, they need to buy flood insurance. So if the county is not participating in the Nfip or is not meeting its obligations under the Nfip to to regulate referencing those maps, than those home purchases will not go through if they need that flood insurance purchase. Also, if then we're not participating and we experience catastrophic, damaging flooding, that disaster aid will not be here.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:05:10] Okay, so so that that's a big deal. It is. And and I guess just going back to the insurance thing, I don't know why I'm stuck on insurance today, but is it the case that if we adopt regulations that reference the maps, that anyone who lives in a floodplain is guaranteed access to the National floodplain insurance program versus. I'm just speculating, since we see this happen with fire insurance for folks living in the urban wildland interface, that there are cases where private insurers simply say, no, we're not going to insure you. Is there some assurance that the Nfip is available to everyone and and and not the sort of roll the dice, uh, whether some insurance carrier will, uh, will provide coverage?

Matt Heimel: [00:05:57] Yeah. So anybody in the county can purchase flood insurance through the nfip. They don't even need to live specifically in a floodplain. They don't need to own the property. They can be a renter getting what's called contents coverage.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:06:09] Okay. I did not know that.

Matt Heimel: [00:06:10] Yeah. And they're and regular homeowners insurance or renters insurance is not going to cover floods. These floods. Yeah. So that's where the flood insurance comes in. And back to your question. Yeah. One of the main backing points for the Nfip is just that it has that federal backing. You can't actually buy it directly through the Nfip. You have to go through an insurance company and the Nfip sets the prices. So the price is set there and it has that that backing. But you're still dealing with these companies. So FEMA itself isn't going to act like an insurance company there.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:06:41] Okay. This is.

Juanita Vero: [00:06:42] Yeah. Okay. Well so now if someone's property is now mapped in the floodplain, these new maps that have just come out, do they have to move or what do they have to do to modify their their property in any way?

Matt Heimel: [00:06:53] So if somebody is looking at these preliminary maps and they're seeing, wow, I'm now in the floodplain and I was not in this mapped area before these maps came out. They don't have to move. They don't have to do anything to their structure. They might need to have a conversation with a lender in case there are insurance requirements. But at the county level with what we deal with, no one has to start changing their house because they're in the floodplain. Now, if someone wants to start doing new construction and after the maps become final and after the county is required to update its regulations, yes, we'll have development standards that apply to those areas. But just because somebody has seen these new maps now doesn't mean they have to change their house now, there are steps people can do within the floodplain, because these maps that are prepared by FEMA reflect the best science and data that we have now to reflect the probability of flood hazards on the Clark Fork, Bitterroot and Rock Creek. So I always recommend to people to think about retrofitting if you're seeing your house in this preliminary floodplain. And it was built before anyone knew about flood hazards there. It wasn't built to any sort of elevation. Contemplating that that flood water, they might have a crawlspace or a basement that's built lower than what that flood water will be at when we have a major flood. They might have utilities or mechanical equipment that's down there. So there's a lot of mitigation steps people can can do. Some of it most of it does involve some degree of of permitting through through the county to make sure that it's done safely and it's done right. But I think retrofitting is a major part and also a major, um, opportunity that we have, especially during our, our season where we're, we're dry and people can think about doing work on, on these structures.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:08:36] And we now have a full complement of county commissioners.

Josh Slotnick: [00:08:39] I was saving a cat in a tree.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:08:41] Ah. Did you cut down the tree?

Josh Slotnick: [00:08:43] I broke it with my bare hands. Excellent, excellent. Saved.

Juanita Vero: [00:08:46] Said Cat back to again. So people don't to manage folks as expectations. What specific rivers are and streams are you talking about with these new maps.

Matt Heimel: [00:08:57] So these new floodplain maps being published by FEMA are related to the Clark Fork. The Bitterroot and Rock Creek.

Juanita Vero: [00:09:04] Just those three.

Matt Heimel: [00:09:05] Just those three.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:09:06] And none of the tributaries of those. So if you live on Grant Creek, for instance, this is not.

Josh Slotnick: [00:09:11] Or Lolo Creek.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:09:12] Right? You name your favorite tributary.

Josh Slotnick: [00:09:14] Yeah.

Matt Heimel: [00:09:14] That's right. Those maps are stained, as is. We had new maps for the Swan River in 2019, Clearwater 2023. But a lot of our other floodplains are going to remain as is. Hopefully we get updates soon, but this update started in 2019. I think it's 2025.

Juanita Vero: [00:09:31] Okay, last.

Matt Heimel: [00:09:31] Time I.

Juanita Vero: [00:09:31] Checked it is still. It is still.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:09:33] So I guess fill us in on what has happened since the last time we met and what is the looking out into the future? Where where are we going with all of this?

Matt Heimel: [00:09:44] Yeah. So the last time we met, it was November of last year, and we were under the impression that the preliminary maps which we have now, were going to come out within a couple of weeks of last November. And what happened is we found out that that was going to be delayed because the floodplain map for the Clark Fork River near the Orchard Homes levee needed to be essentially re-analyzed. So the Orchard Homes levee runs roughly west of Reserve Street, south of the river towards Tower Street, Kirkwall Drive, Stone Street area. And what we were seeing with the prior draft maps that we had was that the area on the landward side of the levee, being the south side that's closer to Third Street, was all being mapped as floodway.

Juanita Vero: [00:10:28] So even though there was a levee there.

Matt Heimel: [00:10:29] Even though there is a levee there. So to back up just a little bit, when we're dealing with a 100 year floodplain or floodplain that has a 1% chance of inundation in any given year, that's called zone A in FEMA speak. And these detailed studies are split into an area that's the the floodway and the flood fringe speaking generally, the floodway is the main flood carrying channel of the river. That's where we think the water will be the deepest and the fastest. There's a lot of technical information in the flood insurance study about the floodway. It's it's surcharge volume and the velocities of the water. But if you have a levee, even if it's not a levee that's built to the 100 year flood, think that's not going to be the main carrying channel of the river. So this process, this study started in 2019, the hydrology and hydraulics or the volume of the water and how that water is behaving across the landscape that was developed in the couple of years, years since. And then afterwards, we had a new mapping guidance technical document created by FEMA about how to deal with levees and flood plain mapping and these kinds of contexts. And it turned out that newer mapping guidance by FEMA resulted in these sort of areas where you have this this levee don't need to be shown as a floodway, because if a if a levee is not accredited or not built to the 100 year standards, it would sometimes essentially be ignored by the flood model and treat it as as if it's not there.

Matt Heimel: [00:11:53] Well, it turns out we can treat some of these constructed elements as if they are there to some extent, knowing that it's not built to the full 100 year standard. So it doesn't need to be a floodway. So the consequence of this, what it actually results in, in those areas that were the floodway in the draft maps are still 100 year floodplain, but they're called flood fringe, which still has hazard to it. It still has the same insurance rules. The same floodplain regulations would ultimately end up being applicable to these areas. But the floodway is the most restrictive area. That's where we need to make sure that we have the least amount of development and alteration, because that's where we need the flood water to really to really go and be able to flow. And so the preliminary maps reflect that, that, that change.

Juanita Vero: [00:12:39] So what is our what's our timeline now then. So where are we at now.

Matt Heimel: [00:12:43] Well right now we're in this interesting period where the preliminary maps are out there, and we have information hosted by the county about how to access this information and interpret it. But in the short term, we're in this period where the preliminary map flood hazard information is published by FEMA, everyone can review this information to understand what areas are shown, how the hazard, how the flood hazards are working in separate areas.

Juanita Vero: [00:13:07] And can it be disputed or argued, or can a landowner, you know, ground truth, the maps or.

Matt Heimel: [00:13:12] It can eventually. So we have we have a few steps to go through. The first step is what's called a consultation coordination officer's meeting or it's coordination consultation officer's meeting Co for for short. And that's going to be when the state Department of Natural Resources and Conservation, NRC and FEMA officially present the maps. It's a little awkward.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:13:36] Because they've not officially been presented yet.

Matt Heimel: [00:13:39] They have not officially been presented. It's a little awkward because the maps are out there, and then months later, or when.

Juanita Vero: [00:13:45] They get their coming out.

Matt Heimel: [00:13:46] Party, exactly. The map coming out party, that's a presentation. And that explains what the next steps will be. So then eventually, sometime some months after CC0 meeting, when the county and stakeholders are presented with the preliminary maps, then the comment and appeal period opens. And that is really FEMA's show. So FEMA will accept comments and appeals to to the maps. I'm involved. I have a really fun role in that. I accept the comments and appeals and I relay it to FEMA and NRC. But I, as the county floodplain administrator, don't have a reviewing or decision making role in a comment or appeal.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:14:27] This is important to know. So so it's all on FEMA to review any disputes as far as an individual property owner's sense of, of whether their property actually is in the floodplain or not, that's on FEMA to you. You take the initial pass and then you.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:45] Yeah, we don't we don't adjudicate that. You don't.

Juanita Vero: [00:14:48] It's just going through you as like an FYI in a sense.

Matt Heimel: [00:14:51] Well, we are the repository for, for all the maps and the appeal. So I essentially am logging them, relaying them.

Juanita Vero: [00:14:58] But you can't, um.

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:00] You don't you don't make FEMA makes the decision.

Matt Heimel: [00:15:02] Right. So I'm expecting you.

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:04] Make a recommendation or anything. Do you, do you speak to it or are you just a pass through?

Matt Heimel: [00:15:07] I'll talk with people about it. I think it's going to come down to to case by case. I'm expecting people will come to our office on Main Street and want to talk about it.

Josh Slotnick: [00:15:15] But you don't make a formal recommendation to FEMA.

Matt Heimel: [00:15:18] Right? That's right.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:15:19] And I guess just prime the pump for folks out there who might be thinking, you know what? These maps that are out there, even though they've not formally been introduced, if you will, uh, this this doesn't reflect what I'm seeing out my kitchen window on my property. In a case like that, what sort of information should folks be thinking about that they would need to provide to FEMA? Because presumably it's more than just I've never seen any water out there. They they're likely going to need some more, uh, formal, uh, defense of their position.

Matt Heimel: [00:15:50] Right. So these maps, as we all know, have been a long time coming. They've been worked on since 2019, and that involves multiple rounds of engineering review by by FEMA engineers, contractors, subcontractors. There's multiple layers of review quality assurance, quality control, catching...

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:11] Who paid for all that work?

Matt Heimel: [00:16:12] The DNRC and and FEMA through grants under a program known as risk map.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:18] Not the county.

Matt Heimel: [00:16:18] Right. And that quality assurance results in preliminary maps that have a much higher standard than even the draft maps had, which all already went through a long study process. So we say comments and appeals because someone can provide a comment. Most of what I think we're going to hear are comments, and those don't result in a change. They might result in some response by FEMA. But to really appeal these maps, it's going into the study that is has been prepared and proving that it is scientifically or mathematically wrong.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:16:51] It sounds like something you'd need to hire a consultant to help you with.

Matt Heimel: [00:16:54] That's right. So typically it's going to be a registered engineer. And they're going to need to again prove that it's mathematically or scientifically wrong and prepare what the correct version would be. It's a challenging process, but it's something that's afforded by FEMA during a 90 day period, which will again start some months after the.

Juanita Vero: [00:17:15] That 90 days after the the map coming out party. That's when that 90 day period.

Matt Heimel: [00:17:19] Right. And we don't know exactly when that is right right now. But we know it's going to be after the map coming out party.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:25] Probably after the government opens up again.

Juanita Vero: [00:17:28] Are you sure about that?

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:30] So if people listening out there want to know where we're at in this process and what's happening next, is there some spot like a dashboard or something like that they can look at?

Matt Heimel: [00:17:38] Missoula County voice is our one stop shop for all things floodplain engagement, the County Floodplain Administration website that gets a little deeper in the details. And there's a lot of cross linking between those. Those two.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:51] Great. All right. Uh, I'll do the last one, then. Sorry again to have come late. Well, Matt, I know from watching you from a distance, uh, that floodplains aren't the only thing you're interested in.

Matt Heimel: [00:18:02] That's right.

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:02] Yeah. So anything you've run across in podcasts, you listen to songs you listen to, books you read, conversations you've had where you feel like, wow, that was a real interesting little nugget of wisdom. I'm holding on to that that you might want to share.

Matt Heimel: [00:18:15] So I am obsessed with electric guitar.

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:18] As I tried last year...I tried to link you up with Tom McGuire, but I think you both might be too shy to chat with you.

Matt Heimel: [00:18:25] We exchanged a couple, uh, messages, but yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:28] He's a serious virtuoso and such a good person, good and kind person.

Matt Heimel: [00:18:33] Guitar players were kind of like cats, you know?

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:36] I think you...

Dave Strohmaier: [00:18:36] Like the one you... 

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:37] Would benefit from chatting with each other.

Matt Heimel: [00:18:39] I think so.

Juanita Vero: [00:18:39] But in a year. Okay, so this is what you you did talk about electric guitars last year.

Speaker5: [00:18:44] Yeah I did. I mentioned uh, were they probably books by Ted Green I think I mentioned now I have a new book I'm going through by Brett Stein. It's called In the Mystery and it is about the all the Harmony technique songs by Allan Holdsworth, who is an absolutely crazy fusion guitar player if no one has ever heard of him.

Juanita Vero: [00:19:02] Where is Allan Allan still alive?

Matt Heimel: [00:19:04] Allan had passed away, sadly, but he left quite a legacy.

Josh Slotnick: [00:19:08] Can you spell his last name?

Matt Heimel: [00:19:10] H o l d w o r t h. Holdsworth. I hope I just passed the spelling bee.

Josh Slotnick: [00:19:16] That's nice, but we're not going to ask you to use it in a sentence. I'm just kidding. Great. Awesome.

Juanita Vero: [00:19:22] Holdsworth. What...What's he make you feel or why?

Speaker5: [00:19:25] Oof!

Dave Strohmaier: [00:19:26] Going deep.

Juanita Vero: [00:19:27] I want to, I want to better because I am not musical at all. I don't even sing or bang on the dashboard or hum in the shower.

Matt Heimel: [00:19:34] So it's a sense.

Juanita Vero: [00:19:36] You're reading a book about music.

Matt Heimel: [00:19:38] Reading a book about music, and learn how to craft the sounds for an unrestricted sense of spiritual freedom because...

Josh Slotnick: [00:19:45] Ooh, that sounds really good.

Matt Heimel: [00:19:46] What Allan Holdsworth, he's using. And also guys like Pat Martino too, To their taking advantage of the guitar's unique layout to use symmetry in our 12 note system. So whether you're using. Splitting up a 12 note sequence in half, in thirds, or in quarters, diminished, augmented or whole tone, and other modes of limited transposition, meaning they're not going to repeat themselves cleanly. They sound kind of weird. Sometimes they just sound awful. But if you learn to arrange them in a in a palatable way, you can come up with some great ways to navigate music.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:20:26] I think he should bring his guitar.

Josh Slotnick: [00:20:28] Yeah. No kidding. I was just thinking...We should have a whole podcast series where we have subject matter experts from within the county talk about something they're not known to be subject matter experts on. Matt does guitar and Jeanna Miller does bow hunting.

Juanita Vero: [00:20:42] Yes.

Josh Slotnick: [00:20:43] That's a passion of hers.

Matt Heimel: [00:20:44] Wow.

Juanita Vero: [00:20:45] Thanks so much.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:20:46] Thanks for coming.

Josh Slotnick: [00:20:47] In. Thanks, Matt. Thanks for doing this hard work and for making yourself so available for all the people who are interested and affected.

Speaker5: [00:20:52] Much appreciated.

Josh Slotnick: [00:20:54] Thanks for listening to the agenda. If you enjoy these conversations, it would mean a lot if you would rate and review the show on whichever podcast app you use.

Juanita Vero: [00:21:02] And if you know a friend who would like to keep up with what's happening in local government, be sure to recommend this podcast to them.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:21:08] The agenda with the Missoula County Commissioners is made possible with support from Missoula Community Access Television, better known as MCAT, and our staff in Missoula County Communications Division.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:20] If you have a question or a topic you'd like us to discuss on a future episode, email it to communications@missoulacounty.us.

Juanita Vero: [00:21:28] To find out other ways to stay up to date with what's happening in Missoula County, go to Missoula.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:21:35] Thanks for listening.