Missoula Housing Authority

Housing vouchers, tax credits and area median income are phrases tossed around in the perennial conversation around access to affordable housing. What do they actually mean, and how can they determine the eligibility of a person or a housing development?

Sam Oliver, executive director of the Missoula Housing Authority, joined the commissioners this week to break down how the various factors, organizations and investments come together to help residents find places to live.

 
Thank you to Missoula's Community Media Resource for podcast recording support!

Transcript

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Josh Slotnick: [00:00:11] Welcome back to the agenda, everybody with Missoula County Commissioners. I'm Josh Slotnick. I'm joined here with fellow Commissioner Dave Strohmaier and my friend, our compatriot Juanita is not here. I hear she's in a in a horse riding endurance challenge. Ah, yes, I think so, yes.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:29] Cross continental.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:31] They don't even they're not even allowed to exit the horse or leave the horse. Get off the horse. I'm not sure what the right words are.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:36] She'll fill us in the next episode.

Josh Slotnick: [00:00:37] Yes. Juanita here, she's somewhere in Missouri today. Today we're joined by our friend Sam Oliver, executive director of the Missoula Housing Authority. So welcome, Sam.

Sam Oliver: [00:00:48] Yes. Thank you for having me.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:49] Sam, is this your first time on our show?

Sam Oliver: [00:00:51] This is my first time on the show, so I'm excited.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:00:53] Excellent. Well, I will break the ice. What the what the heck is a housing authority or the Missoula housing?

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:00] Let's let people know. We already know we do.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:01:02] This is a rhetorical question.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:04] A rhetorical question. Yes. If we didn't know, that would be a.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:01:06] There's rarely a thing that we don't.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:08] It's incredible. Our breadth is just it's amazing for the few out there that don't know. Sam.

Sam Oliver: [00:01:13] Yeah. Housing authority is a bit of a unique animal because we're local quasi governmental agencies. I know that's a mouthful, but we're created to provide affordable housing to low and moderate income residents. Now, housing authorities are authorized under the Housing Act of 1937. So it's rooted in federal law but established and operated at the local level.

Josh Slotnick: [00:01:35] So when you say quasi governmental, it's the quasi meaning part of the feds or part of the city in the city.

Sam Oliver: [00:01:40] Yeah, a little bit of both. And we are. So we're not a nonprofit. We'll get to that later in the conversation. But that's one of the things that we get lumped into. We're kind of our own beast as quasi governmental. We're essentially a pass through for HUD funds, for federal housing funds. Okay. Yep. And each housing authority is governed by a board of commissioners and operates within its own community boundaries. So.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:01] Wow. So you have a board of commissioners.

Sam Oliver: [00:02:03] Yes we do. We have.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:04] Who appoints them?

Sam Oliver: [00:02:05] The mayor appoints them. There's seven commissioners. Two of them are resident commissioners. So actual residents of ours who inform processes.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:02:12] So so the mayor appoints. And just to be clear, when when the word commissioner is used, that does not mean the Board of County commissioners. This is this is separate. And do you do much of any work outside of the city limits?

Sam Oliver: [00:02:27] You know, we can go anywhere in Missoula County that we're invited, but primarily we're city limits or just beyond some of our vouchers. For instance, they go, you know, to the rural communities, East Missoula down to Lolo. But for the most part, we're Missoula city limits currently.

Josh Slotnick: [00:02:44] So you're a pass through in terms of dollars from the federal government, but you also, is it correct? Work with the state Housing Board and talk about that.

Sam Oliver: [00:02:52] Yes, yes. So one of our our biggest tools to put development on the ground, to put units on the ground is the low income housing tax credits. That's a federal tax credit that each state has an allocation. So I believe this year in Montana, the allocation was somewhere in the neighborhood of $32 million. Wow. And then it's an open application process where you go and you present to the Board of Housing. And the top eight projects are chosen to move forward to an award grant.

Josh Slotnick: [00:03:20] So it's.

Sam Oliver: [00:03:21] It's competitive.

Josh Slotnick: [00:03:22] Yes it is. What are the criteria by which you're judged?

Sam Oliver: [00:03:25] It's a pretty open system scoring system that the commissioners use after they've heard these presentations. I should start by saying that every year. It's a bit depressing almost, that there are so many wonderful projects. Every one of these projects that come really deserve to be built, and they have a need, a demonstrable need in their communities. So it's one of the toughest things for us to see so many, uh, you know, communities fall short, but we're also very good at what we do and have taken advantage of this to be able to put units on the ground here in Missoula, and we're looking forward to our next project.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:04:02] So this might be getting into the weeds. Yeah, a little bit here, but could you just walk us through the mechanics of how the tax credits would help bring a project to.

Sam Oliver: [00:04:13] Oh, I can it is a highly complicated process. And essentially what the federal government is doing is they are incentivizing banks to purchase these credits. And these are banks with an outstanding tax bill, and they can invest in these tax credits to reduce their tax bill. So it's beneficial to all parties. And the credits that they buy are somewhat volatile. And it's based on supply and demand. And it's also based on regulation of these banks. So in other words, if you're regulated at a higher rate under a certain administration, then you'll be competing with other banks to try and attain those tax credits, bring your tax bill down. And the end result is we get a higher tax credit pricing.

Josh Slotnick: [00:05:00] So. So if I understand this right basically it's kind of a pennies on the dollar. Yes. So bank XYZ has a monstrous tax liability. And they would love to get $5 million off on their taxes. So they think, man, can we buy $5 million worth of tax credits for $4 million? Yes. Whatever it is, $0.80 on the dollar. And if you are tapped by the state, you get in essence, you you get the privilege of selling those $5 million worth of tax credits, and you have to have a broker or some intermediary go out there on the market and find out who's going to give you the most pennies on the dollar for those tax syndicator. Yeah. And this is also, if I understand this right, this has been around for a long time because people who are both wearing the red hat or the blue hat in terms of political parties like this, isn't that good? Work is done. Everybody likes good work. And this helps entities who want tax relief get tax relief while simultaneously doing something positive.

Sam Oliver: [00:05:57] Exactly.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:05:57] So. So connect the final dots here. So the bank goes through the steps that you just mentioned here. They reduce their tax liability. How does that someone out there might be wondering how does that equate to an actual housing project being developed on the ground.

Sam Oliver: [00:06:13] Well then they're the investor in the project and they've given the necessary capital for the job to go forward. And this is not by any means the only source for these projects. So we currently have our most recent project, which features at last count, 17 sources.

Josh Slotnick: [00:06:28] This is this is what people call the capital stack.

Sam Oliver: [00:06:30] Yes. So the it's a robust capital stack and it's a bit of a Jenga game. If you pull any one of them out, the whole thing falls. So it's it's a very, very complex situation. And again, it's competitive. And within the competitive award of these projects, you have feasibility and you have to find appropriate parcels of land to put down a mindful project. And that's where the competition comes in.

Speaker 4: [00:06:55] So does.

Josh Slotnick: [00:06:55] Scale come into.

Sam Oliver: [00:06:57] This? It does. It does. And we've seen a scaling up in recent years. And by that I mean in years past, the 9% low income housing tax credits were enough capital to do a project.

Josh Slotnick: [00:07:12] And what does that mean? 9%.

Sam Oliver: [00:07:14] Those are the competitive tax credits. And so there is such a thing as noncompetitive tax credits by. Yep.

Josh Slotnick: [00:07:21] By bond scale. Right. Like you got to produce enough.

Sam Oliver: [00:07:24] Exactly. And so those are called 4%. And so what you're seeing now as an increasing number of developers having to go through the process of twinning the four and 9% tax credits, that's a tremendously complex undertaking. Basically, the project is split into two projects, one 4%, one 9%, and they're treated separately with separate compliance and everything through the build.

Josh Slotnick: [00:07:47] Yeah. Super complicated.

Sam Oliver: [00:07:49] Yeah. So I'm not sure if we dispelled any of the getting into the weeds there. Dave.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:07:53] That's okay.

Sam Oliver: [00:07:54] Yeah, we might have gotten further into the weeds.

Josh Slotnick: [00:07:56] The essential piece of the capital stack. Yeah.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:07:59] Now, the housing authority here in Missoula, and I'll just preface it by saying there are a plentitude of non-profits in Missoula and Missoula County, and it might concern some that we're just having a bunch of overlapping duplicative efforts. How do you carve out a niche for yourself, or what is the space in which the housing authority works versus other non-profits also working on housing issues?

Sam Oliver: [00:08:27] Sure. That's pretty simple, Dave. Being a quasi governmental entity, that term we used, we're not a nonprofit. And that's the key distinction. So some of these nonprofits are nimble, often focused on specific niches. So homeowner education, shelter development, land trusts, they all have a very narrow focus there. And we administer the federal programs and own and manage housing stock. So we're almost more of an infrastructure piece there. But I will say what a wonderful community. I mean, this is extremely difficult work. And I interact with peers from around the country and from having a, a mayor with a development background and an aggressive plan to identify city surplus lands and get them developed. But then also the, the large family of nonprofits that we have, we consider ourselves part of that family and we augment one another. We oftentimes work with them. There's no element of competition. So we're constantly looking on how we can support each other's programs and ultimately the residents of Missoula.

Josh Slotnick: [00:09:32] Awesome. So you own housing stock. You are, in essence, property owners. Yes. And you lease apartments.

Sam Oliver: [00:09:40] Yes. So that is probably the largest clarification we can make for the housing authority. And that is the difference between affordable housing and subsidized housing. So affordable housing is in a broad sense, priced at or below 30% of a household's gross income. And so some of our.

Josh Slotnick: [00:09:59] So the rent isn't set. The rent is dependent on how much the the rent or earns.

Sam Oliver: [00:10:04] Yes. Yes. And so they become market rate units designated affordable through either financing or deed restrictions for those units.

Josh Slotnick: [00:10:14] So that that basically, if I'm going to break this down, financing or deed restrictions means on the conditions of the loan that you got to build this property. Exactly. And a deed restriction is something that's placed on the deed that says only this type of behavior in terms of leasing can happen at this apartment. And the deed restriction goes beyond any one tenant or any one owner of the property. It sticks with the property.

Sam Oliver: [00:10:36] Exactly. And that's essentially the nuts and bolts of understanding that we set those rents so that people are not rent burdened over that 30%. Now, with subsidized housing, that's a direct government subsidy that reduces what attendance pays, and it's covered by a program.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:10:54] So no, in that case, no affordability runs with the land or the property.

Sam Oliver: [00:10:58] It's right. And oftentimes we're partnering with private landlords in these cases. So again, yes you take your voucher and.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:07] The.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:11:08] Word voucher. Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:09] And that's and that's the partner with let's.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:11:11] Get a little weedy with.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:12] Vouchers. Yeah. The landlord is agreeing to accept a voucher, but the rate at which they're charging is in a sense market rate. It's just that the person who's leasing the space via you all and a voucher is not paying. They pay a portion. The subsidy fills in that gap. The landlord is sort of made whole in terms of market rate.

Sam Oliver: [00:11:32] Exactly. Well fair market rents. Yeah.

Speaker 4: [00:11:34] So what's what.

Josh Slotnick: [00:11:35] Yeah yeah.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:11:36] What what what is what is a voucher.

Sam Oliver: [00:11:38] Housing voucher was formerly known. Many people know it by section eight. It's now called the Housing Choice Voucher Program. And it allows voucher holders to find housing on the private market. Mh again pays for a portion of the rent directly to the landlord, and the tenant pays roughly 30% of their income, and MHA covers the rest up to a set payment standard. So again, you know, once people start going over 30%, we consider it cost burden or rent burden at that point. And it's something that a lot of Missoulians are struggling with. Landlords and our programs need to agree to participate, and the unit must pass an inspection standards set by HUD. And it's choice based. People can live in the community, not just designated projects. Is flexibility.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:12:22] Are you as the housing authority or Missoula or the state of Montana only doled out a certain number of vouchers? How does. How does.

Sam Oliver: [00:12:31] That. Yes. Again, we get into another very complex process here, but every year we're awarded our Hap contract housing assistance payments, and that's our budget for the year. And the challenge is that budget's not released oftentimes for months into the year. So there's a lot of forecasting there. There's a lot of working with our financial analysts. I will say it is a tremendously difficult time to be a housing authority. When I travel and speak to peers, the vast majority of housing authorities right now are in what's called shortfall, which means they have not been given the budget authority to support the number of vouchers they have. So there's a process there.

Josh Slotnick: [00:13:10] But there's no money behind it.

Sam Oliver: [00:13:11] Right. So there's various ways that they deal with that. You know, if I if a housing authority is in shortfall, you're asked to just, again, not actively lease vouchers. And then as attrition happens and people leave the voucher program, you don't release that voucher until you're back within your voucher budget. Sure, sure. And so it's a bit of a moving target for us. We were up until a month ago, we were leasing as many vouchers as we could put on the street, and then we got our Hap contract, and it was clear that we had to stop at that point.

Josh Slotnick: [00:13:43] How's how's Missoula doing for vacancy rates right now, and how does that relate to the ability of a person who has a voucher to actually find a place to live.

Sam Oliver: [00:13:52] Vacancy rates are part of it. And then also rents, of course, you know. So you have somebody who needs to find vacancy, but then also within a certain affordability window there. So it's it's difficult. The entire time I've lived in Missoula almost 30 years now, and the vacancy rates rarely drop below 3 or 4%. And we know, you know, talking to our economists that it needs to be up closer to 5 to 8% to be considered healthy. There's been a lot of fluctuation. There's been a lot of market rate recently. There's been and we've read since House Bill 124 came out and the legislature and then we did a bunch of code reform in Missoula. That's really Springboarded development. The number of permits statewide has really shot up. So we're hoping to see increased production due to those factors.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:41] So there's some there's some math going on here. And I wonder how our kind of elevated rent rental market fits in with all this.

Speaker 4: [00:14:47] So if a person's.

Josh Slotnick: [00:14:49] Getting a voucher that should roughly be 30% of their income. So if they're a low income person, even with the voucher, can they make what is market rate here? My concern is with other federal programs that we've run into, the Amis, the average median incomes that the feds work off of, and rental prices and homeownership prices, which I get are part of a different discussion. I'm only bringing this up because it's similar. Those rates are set nationally and don't apply to us. We are actually a much more expensive place than many other parts of America, and we don't have super high wages. So how does that all fit together to make rentals with a voucher a possibility?

Sam Oliver: [00:15:29] I'm glad you brought that up, because prior to last year, there had not been a fair market rent reevaluation study. And by that I mean the data at which the feds used to set the payment standard is gleaned from a variety of sources. Some of that is historical census data. Well, when you're talking about Montana, there's very little usable census data. So a lot of times they lump us in with, say, a Salt Lake or a Denver or something of that to flesh that out. That's better.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:00] And say Fallon County. Yeah, that'd be rough. But we're we're a lot more like Salt Lake. That's fine.

Sam Oliver: [00:16:06] But the result was the same. We were lagging way behind. So our voucher utilization rate after Covid dropped to like 50% because.

Josh Slotnick: [00:16:14] People couldn't afford.

Sam Oliver: [00:16:15] It. Right. Well, you could take it out there. You couldn't find a place that would rent for the value of the voucher. So together with I represent, I'm the the Montana State president for the National Association of Housing and Redevelopment Officials. That's a mouthful. So we call it Naro. The Montana Board of Commerce and our group at Naro approached the feds at HUD and said that we think there's a real upside down situation right here, and we would like to undergo a FMI reevaluation study, and I believe at the time that was the first one in the country. And so yeah, so always fraught with a little bit of peril there. You don't know if you're going to get what you want, but it came through and it was so obvious that we were underfunded that they made a change in the way that they're doing the evaluation. And it resulted in $20 million across the state of Montana. Wow.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:08] It's making me think about us economically compared to big cities. And you were on city council for a while, I remember for a while, but the city's slogan a long time.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:15] It depends on where you were going with this. As to whether or not I was on.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:21] The slogan was something like "Missoula, Montana the full cost of Seattle at half the culture".

Sam Oliver: [00:17:25] Yeah.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:27] Something like that

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:28] I might have come up with that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:29] I think.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:29] That's good.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:29] That's good.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:30] Uh, what was I going to ask? Well.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:34] Good job on adjusting to reality.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:17:36] That's great. So when did that actually kick in?

Sam Oliver: [00:17:39] That went into effect last summer and immediately helped us out. Our voucher utilization is in the 70 percents now and climbing due to that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:48] So what do you guys think of an attainable market rate? One bedroom apartment would go for.

Sam Oliver: [00:17:54] A market rate. We hear stuff all over the board.

Josh Slotnick: [00:17:59] Okay.

Sam Oliver: [00:18:00] Yeah that's that's difficult. I can tell you that I have different AMI breakouts to try and put this into context for Missoula. So am I. Standards or area median income is the midpoint income for the area, and it's published annually by HUD. And you can think of it as a yardstick. Half the people earn above it, half below it. So in 2026, Missoula County Ami for a family of four was $110,000.

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:29] Wow.

Sam Oliver: [00:18:29] Again, you know, an 80% AMI for a family of 480% is oftentimes the ceiling for affordable housing programs, but that would be up to 86,640. When we look at a relatable single person example. You know, a 60% am I for a single person would be somebody earning up to 45, 60%.

Josh Slotnick: [00:18:51] So does that mean if, if you're a single person, you and you want to take advantage of the voucher program, you need to be earning 60% of Ami?

Sam Oliver: [00:19:01] Well, there are different properties and there are different levels here. So we rent all the way from 30% to 80% primarily. And so there are options in our different programs and our different properties for people who fall into that AMI demographic.

Josh Slotnick: [00:19:13] Okay.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:19:13] Well, we are fortunate enough last week to have an assistant secretary of HUD here in Missoula. That's right. And I think they were quite impressed with what we have going on. We took a tour of Blue Heron. Yeah, the temporary safe outdoor space housing development going on as we speak out in the area near the airport and in the.

Josh Slotnick: [00:19:36] Grant area, and talked about how infrastructure grants facilitated the creation of more market rate housing, which would help with our vacancy rates, but they had lots of good things to say about Missoula in the city of Missoula and all of.

Sam Oliver: [00:19:49] That. Yes. And I think the important takeaway there again, is what a special place Missoula is. We're seeing that as well with our HUD officials. We have a lot of people who want to bring their directors or their staff to Missoula to see what we're doing. Right. We are oftentimes big brother in the state. There's a small group of US public housing authorities, and we're oftentimes asked for advice in certain areas. And again, coming back to Missoula as a whole, we have the resources, we have the nonprofits that you're talking about, the people that can provide kind of the whole package of homeownership and the spectrum thereof, you know, from folks that were formerly homeless all the way to people graduating into homeownership. There are several steps in there, and we just work hard to promote all of them.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:20:30] Is there something in particular you're proud about, proud of that you're working on right now or have recently accomplished?

Sam Oliver: [00:20:37] Oh, gosh. You know, we we have so many this year, our largest focus. We have an OCC rehab and acquisition rehab of the Wildflower Apartments, which are down on 34th Street near the Missoula Housing Authority's main office. And those were 96 affordable units that came up for sale 6 or 7 years ago now, and it came up for sale at market rate. So the former owner had run it as affordable. And he said, I'm going to sell it as market rate, which would have meant the eventual displacement 96 families. So the housing authority at that time recognized the need and stepped in and bought the property. And it was not a great deal for MHA. It was bought at market rate. And then when we did that, the owner swept the reserves. So you have an aging property that had a bank account saved up to take care of deferred maintenance, and that gets wiped at time of sale. So we purchased probably overbought a little bit overpaid for the property and then had zero money to take care of it in the interim until we get it rehabbed. But we're very good at what we do, and we built up reserves and resources, and were able to begin a little bit of that work before. Last year, we attained light tech, low income housing tax credits to do this renovation.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:49] So you can get this project.

Sam Oliver: [00:21:50] Yes.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:51] For rehab.

Sam Oliver: [00:21:51] Not just new construction. It's not just new construction.

Josh Slotnick: [00:21:53] Is that a different competitive process?

Sam Oliver: [00:21:56] No, it's all the same. Same pool. So that one will hopefully begin in late August early September. It's going to be fantastic. It's a project that is close to me, both physically and to the heart, because it's right across the street from my main office. I know many of the people who live there and the energy around. It's very exciting now because people are really excited for a rehab of a property that needs it.

Josh Slotnick: [00:22:19] So we got something you're proud of. What are what are things that are you seeing? This is a real challenge in the world of the Missoula Housing Authority. What are the big challenges you're facing?

Dave Strohmaier: [00:22:28] Something you screwed up bad?

Josh Slotnick: [00:22:30] No, I'm not saying that's not what I was. I was going with challenges, not mistakes. Challenges.

Sam Oliver: [00:22:35] No. You know, I think just the general challenge is how to keep putting housing on the ground. We have a continued need. And when we let the economists speak, they say it's very simple. You just have to produce X number of units a year. I believe it's 1200 for Missoula.

Josh Slotnick: [00:22:49] I hate that.

Sam Oliver: [00:22:51] I do too. And so those of us that work in this business and recognize the ups and downs and the external factors that play into this, we just have to always be looking for the best opportunity to be able to do this. As you said earlier in the conversation, things can get difficult with the changing of a federal administration, but it is a bipartisan issue. There's no lawmaker in the country that wants to go back and tell their constituents that they voted against housing during our current climate. So I'm hopeful. I've talked to people across the aisle, and I'm hopeful that we can maintain, and I'm not against tweaking certain things at the HUD level. There's a lot of things that have been there for a long time, and there's some modernization that could benefit everybody.

Josh Slotnick: [00:23:35] Yeah, I was impressed with the two folks from HUD that came here. They seemed very committed to. Let's get more housing out on the landscape. There was no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and they also seemed to recognize how complicated it is. Even if everything is all set, everyone's in agreement, it still takes an awful lot to construct something of size quickly without spending lots and lots of money. Lots of zeros and commas. It's just a really hard thing to do.

Sam Oliver: [00:24:00] Well, exactly. And as fiduciaries of the taxpayers money, we're very careful. We do not want to enter into any poor deals. And so Dave's joke there, we don't have any of those. We don't have any nightmare things in our past. We're very careful, very mindful. And you'll remember before we built Trinity and Bellagio that we went out and we listened to the community and we did some studies and we did some listening sessions. And it was very clear that there were no three and four bedroom apartments for rent in Missoula. So that was informed design. And that's what we we aim to do is really provide what the community needs.

Josh Slotnick: [00:24:35] Great, great. Do you feel like there's anything we all could do in local government or in in concert with the nonprofit housing development world and putting you guys in that even though you're not a nonprofit in terms of communicating with people who are working in our state legislature, because sometimes we hear the message, we've heard this in Montana, but also in plenty of other states. Local government just needs to get out of the way. We need to build housing, and they won't do it. They're all NIMBYs. They're bought and sold by incumbents and leafy neighborhoods who want to preserve their non Adu way of life, and it's just a bunch of crap. Yet the narrative persists. What do you what are your thoughts on communicating the realities of what it takes to get housing on the ground to people at the next level of government?

Sam Oliver: [00:25:18] Well, we do have what's called the Montana Housing Coalition, and it's made up of a broad group of developers, financiers and then staffs from housing authorities and Department of Commerce, Department of Housing, Board of Housing. And it's a very robust group. And they've actually made the decision to ramp up to consulting during the off session when everybody is on recess. So we're trying to get the messaging across more consistently at every possible opportunity to our lawmakers. We do feel like we have some good partnerships there. And you'll recall last session in the legislature, there was a bipartisan coalition, and some of those elected suffered for it because they went across the aisle in a time where that's not an attractive thing to do, but they did it for housing. And so I'm hopeful for that. And again, Missoula, what a community for housing unlike any place in the state right now. We've really done the things and done them quickly. We got through our code reform and our master plan, and we're out of the gates now. We're we're ready to start building.

Josh Slotnick: [00:26:20] Just have to point out, please correct me if I get this wrong. We at the county did it before the city in the peri urban area, not just before the city, but before a lesser known podcast or a few people.... Probably Ezra Klein....he's waving this book about abundance all around. We did it before him and before the city, though a smaller area and less complicated. We did. We were first to the line.

Sam Oliver: [00:26:44] No, absolutely. You're included in the title of Missoulians.

Josh Slotnick: [00:26:47] Thank you, thank you, I appreciate that.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:26:50] Talk to us a little bit about Blue Heron Place and what a real example of public private partnership looks like there and what that is doing, because some folks listening may not be aware of this at all.

Sam Oliver: [00:27:02] Blue Heron Place was conceived in partnership with the city, the county and several of US care providers and housers back in the day, and our community was responsibly looking ahead at some of the challenges we were facing with with our houseless population. And so they did a very mindful process of visiting similar projects in, say, Denver, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, and really ask the important questions what works and what doesn't work and took note. And so that partnership wound up providing for Blue Heron Place, which is a 30 unit project where people have what's called a shelter plus care voucher. These are folks that are just formerly homeless, their.

Josh Slotnick: [00:27:46] Shelter Plus care voucher?

Sam Oliver: [00:27:48] Yes. Yes. The important distinction on that particular voucher is that folks do not need to show income.

Josh Slotnick: [00:27:54] Ah.

Sam Oliver: [00:27:55] Okay. And so these are folks that are formerly homeless, and they're referred to the property by the city's FUSE program. And this is a little complicated, but the the city FUSE program gets its funding through.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:28:09] FUSE stands for...

Sam Oliver: [00:28:10] Oh...

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:11] Frequent user...Service entity.

Sam Oliver: [00:28:16] Yes. Service entity.

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:18] "Frequent users"is the first two.

Sam Oliver: [00:28:19] Yes. But at any rate, again, they get their funding from the Continuum of Care, which is a federal funding passed down to the state and then again distributed by the Continuum of Care.

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:31] Frequently used systems engagement.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:28:32] Not something that you light with a match.

Josh Slotnick: [00:28:34] Yeah, Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah.

Sam Oliver: [00:28:37] And so all that to say that there's a lot of regulation and compliance built in. But from a simplistic standpoint, this is giving some of our neediest neighbors a hand up and a safe place to live and a safe place to get in out of the elements and to work on elements of their life. Because the ultimate goal is for them to move into their own housing and move through the housing spectrum.

Josh Slotnick: [00:29:00] The research on this is if you take people who've been living outdoors for a long time and put them in housing, it doesn't stick unless there are services right there.

Sam Oliver: [00:29:09] It's really key. You know, one of the things I'm asked about most because Blue Heron and Valor House and cornerstone were three of the first in the state. People embarking on this ask me a lot of questions about how to do things right. It's extremely difficult. But the one thing that I tell everyone is before you do anything, establish your care provider partner. There is such a shallow pool of care providers that can provide for the acute needs that this population demands sometimes. And so that is the trickiest part for a lot of rural Montana is finding a care provider. We partner with partnership health care, and they're fantastic. And they're always stretched because they're really trying to solve a lot of community health issues. They're just a fantastic partner. But it all starts there. And if you don't have that piece and that person to help with the population, then you shouldn't start because we're housers together, MHA and homeward own that property and we don't have the training or the know how, what it takes to provide care on top of housing. We're housers.

Josh Slotnick: [00:30:17] So to circle back to the beginning of our conversation, when we were talking about LIHTC, low income, no income tax credits. This was a LIHTC project and was.

Sam Oliver: [00:30:28] This was not.

Josh Slotnick: [00:30:29] Oh no, the Trinity project wasn't Trinity LIHTC.

Sam Oliver: [00:30:32] Project. No, this was not a LIHTC project.

Josh Slotnick: [00:30:35] Oh, man, I thought it was a 4% LIHTC.

Sam Oliver: [00:30:37] Oh, the 4% portion. Yes. Pardon me. Pardon me. It was. Yeah...I missed that, my apologies.

Josh Slotnick: [00:30:40] No worries. We were able to skip past the super competitive piece, the 9% and get to the 4%, because not all the housing is located on that corner on Broadway. We partnered up and made one project out of two disconnected chunks of housing. Do you want to two?

Sam Oliver: [00:30:59] It was two different entities Homeward and Missoula Housing Authority complexities. Right. And we both kind of had a line on the separate parts of the project. And it's right when this project was being envisioned and somebody along the way said, hey, stop, do we have an opportunity here to fund this through the 4% noncompetitive tax credits and put housing on both sites?

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:21] So, so, so more partnerships leverage, more resources. And the cost was a little more complexity. But thankfully, we have really smart people who can work in this space.

Sam Oliver: [00:31:31] That's, that's the the nutshell. Yes.

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:33] Yeah. Good on us. Because that meant we weren't in that same competitive environment.

Sam Oliver: [00:31:37] Right? Absolutely.

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:39] Can't forget the county donated four acres of land to help make this happen.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:31:42] Tip of the spear, baby.

Sam Oliver: [00:31:44] That's right. Yeah. Absolutely. We don't lose sight of that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:31:46] It was by far the least complicated piece of this. Yeah. We're like, here, have some dirt. We're out now. That's not what we said.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:31:53] If folks want to learn more about the Missoula Housing Authority, what should they do?

Sam Oliver: [00:31:57] Well, they can always visit Missoula housing.org. And folks can also consider becoming a voucher program partner as a landlord.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:05] Oh, what is that?

Sam Oliver: [00:32:06] So that's somebody with a perhaps a property that they're looking to rent or have been renting rather than renting market rate, they could partner with us and provide for a voucher holder. And again, we perform the HUD mandated inspections. So we make sure that the property is being taken care of. And we basically act as liaison between the landlord and tenant.

Josh Slotnick: [00:32:28] That's great, because I can imagine somebody saying, I'd love to do this, but I don't want any drama in my life with somebody who's got a voucher. And sounds like what you're saying is we're here. You can interact with us.

Sam Oliver: [00:32:40] Exactly. You know, donors and advocates, you can support partner organizations doing the wraparound service work we're talking about. And then, you know, one of the last words of wisdom that I've found in my last few years of employment in this position is that we could use everybody's help spreading the word and reducing the stigma around subsidized housing. It's community work. We're bettering our community as a whole. We're very excited about an upcoming project in a blighted neighborhood. The neighborhood is very excited about it. We can really transform different parts of Missoula through these partnerships, and we like to be all inclusive. We like to hear from the community first. What does the community need and want? And we'll always work towards that.

Josh Slotnick: [00:33:25] Oh, that's such a great attitude, Sam. Thanks.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:33:27] Sam. We always like to end our podcast with a bit of inspiration for our listeners. Not to say that the last half an hour have not been inspiring, but is there any bit of cultural wisdom? Good book you've read recently. Something else you've run across that has inspired you?

Sam Oliver: [00:33:46] I continue just to be inspired by our community. I don't mean to cop out on this question, but I really can't underscore enough how proud I am of the people that work with us and around us, and that goes all the way up to our elected leadership. I recall times having been in development, big, big headaches at the building department and permitting and subdivision and things that were adding cost to these projects, and the city and county have done a wonderful job of listening. And I think that's what we can all do as community members. Rather than lash out about certain things, try and conceptualize what your neighbors are going through and how you might help them.

Josh Slotnick: [00:34:23] Yeah, those are words of wisdom right there.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:34:25] Absolutely.

Josh Slotnick: [00:34:25] Thanks, Sam.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:34:26] Thanks, Sam. We appreciate you coming.

Josh Slotnick: [00:34:27] Yeah. Thanks for listening.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:34:28] Yes.

Josh Slotnick: [00:34:29] See you all soon.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:34:30] See you next time.

Sam Oliver: [00:34:30] Thank you. Bye now.

Josh Slotnick: [00:34:32] Thanks for listening to the agenda. If you enjoy these conversations, it would mean a lot if you would rate and review the show on whichever podcast app you use.

Juanita Vero: [00:34:40] And if you know a friend who would like to keep up with what's happening in local government, be sure to recommend this podcast to them.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:34:46] The agenda with the Missoula County Commissioners is made possible with support from Missoula Community Access Television, better known as MCAT, and our staff in the Missoula County Communications Division.

Josh Slotnick: [00:34:58] If you have a question or a topic you'd like us to discuss on a future episode, email it to Communications@missoulacounty.us.

Juanita Vero: [00:35:06] To find out other ways to stay up to date with what's happening in Missoula County, go to missoula.com/updates.

Dave Strohmaier: [00:35:13] Thanks for listening.